Updating system. Denon 5308 or Yamaha RX-Z11?

[PBMax]

I've been running a Denon 4802 for years, mated to the Denon 2900 DVD player and have been pretty darn happy. I'm currently running 5.1 with Accoustic Energy Aelite 3's in front, the Aelite Center and Boston Accoustics VR50's in the back. TV is a Panasonic TH50PX25 50" HDTV that I bought back in 2004, but still looks great.

Anyhow, it's getting to be time to make a move up in all respects and I've been leaning towards the Denon 5308. I've had plenty of time to read the reviews and get fired up, but I would like to hear how you guys feel the Yamaha RX-Z11 compares. I'm not too familiar with the Yamaha and my bias is against it, so I'll put that out at the start. But it's also difficult to ignore the sale price being offered currently at $2,500.

I may also buy the Oppo BDP-83 before anything else, but that's not necessarily a direct part of the equation at hand.

I look forward to your feedback and thank you guys in advance.

 

[sharkman]

For much less than what the 5308 would cost you could get separates and a solid gain in audio performance, and match the video performance. I don't know too much personally about Yamaha receivers, but current owners on various forums find their amp sections to be not what they once were.

 

[jostenmeat]

If the price difference wasn't much, I'd go with the Denon, just because. Well, if it REALLY was me, I'd also do separates, but I can absolutely understand getting a flagship receiver instead. However, the AH review, as glowing as it was, points out the Yam's superior amp section on a number of occasions.

I agree, get the BDP first!

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/denon-avr-5308ci/measurements-conclusion

The AVR-5308CI exhibited very good frequency response uniformity at high power levels (-3dB of 68 kHz) though not quite as steady with varying power levels as we’ve seen on the Yamaha RX-Z11.

Denon AVR-5308CI Power output: < 0.1% THD + N

* 1CH, 8 ohms: 160watts
* 2CH, 8 ohm, 150wpc
* 1CH, 4 ohms: 240wpc
* 2CH, 4 ohm 220wpc

For a rated power of 150wpc x 7, the AVR-5308CI delivered the goods, though not quite so well as the 140wpc similarly priced Yamaha RX-Z11 that under the same test conditions delivered as follows:

Yamaha RX-Z11 Power output: <0.1% THD + N

* 1CH, 8 ohms: 190wpc
* 2CH, 8 ohms: 172wpc
* 1CH, 4 ohms: 300wpc
* 2CH, 4 ohms: 256wpc

Overall the amp section of the AVR-5308CI is very good, though no match for the venerable AVR-5805CI monster 10CH receiver. Performance is probably a halfway point between the old AVR-4802 and the old flagship AVR-5803 - and not quite as robust as the amps found in Yamaha's similarly priced receiver.

Keep in mind most review publications don’t do continuous power measurements and they usually publish power measurements into clipping at 1% THD + N. Our measurements are very conservative and it is clear that Denon is meeting and exceeding the 150wpc power rating.

For more info on amplifier measurements, see: The All Channels Driven (ACD) Test

Amplifier Output Impedance & Damping Factor

 

[PBMax]

I looked at the Emotiva's for quite a while, but have grown uncomfortable with their in-stock/out-of-stock fluctuations. I know they get great reviews on service and sound, but it's a personal comfort level.

I like the NAD Master Series stuff, but their initial M15, which can be had at a great price used now, has 1.2 HDMI and I want the most current connections as I would prefer to keep my next purchase for many years. The new Master Series processor looks pretty awesome, but carries a price.

I'm thinking in the next month or two...hopefully not three...I can find a new 5308 for around $3,500. I will also be going 7.1 at least. My set-up would look really cool with the extra 2 speakers mounted on each side of the TV though....I'm almost more afraid that Denon will introduce a 5310 before I upgrade that will make me want to save a little longer.

 

[PBMax]

Hey josten - that section of the Yam's review did catch me, but it seemed that the video processing was better on the Denon. I actually think that it seems much of the bonus on power is at lower listening levels and gains in clarity, but that probably has more to do with circuitry and the quality found in great seperates.

I only rarely listen at level "bleed," so I don't know how much a little extra power will impact my needs. I'm basically looking at getting the best combination of audio/video processors, amplification and connectivity available for around $3,500. I may be able to push a bit, but at some point the wife comes into play.

I just know I'll make my big purchase and then HDMI 1.4 or 1.5 will be "must have."

 

[jostenmeat]

Hey josten - that section of the Yam's review did catch me, but it seemed that the video processing was better on the Denon. I actually think that it seems much of the bonus on power is at lower listening levels and gains in clarity, but that probably has more to do with circuitry and the quality found in great seperates.

I only rarely listen at level "bleed," so I don't know how much a little extra power will impact my needs. I'm basically looking at getting the best combination of audio/video processors, amplification and connectivity available for around $3,500. I may be able to push a bit, but at some point the wife comes into play.

I just know I'll make my big purchase and then HDMI 1.4 or 1.5 will be "must have."

Thanks for better clarifying your position. I think you'll be very happy with the 5308 (outside of an imminent release of a 5310, as you say, but firstly in today's world not every new generation is an improvement, and secondly, it will mostly likely be sold at full retail for a little while unless you "know someone").

I'm a big fan of Audyssey. Now you might hate it, and a few people I quite admire also hate it. Most do love it though.

You already know that you enjoy Denon. You seem to keep your stuff for a long time, and Denon has a reputed reliability to let you do that.

I'm on my second Onkyo receiver, (the latest being my current pre/pro, and refurbished), and in between those was a refurbished NAD. While the Onkyo's did everything perfectly (as far as I understood their capabilities before purchasing), the NAD did not. Furthermore, I have reason to believe that the NAD had a very high distortion, at least via digital inputs (SPDIF). I still use the "matching" NAD mch amp, also refurbed. No reason to change there.

Emotiva is known as a bang for buck product, but not everyone loves them. Some of our most prolific posters here have had very bad experiences, but they would never tell you, because they don't want to bash anymore than they have to.

Of course, Onkyo has received plenty of beat downs in years past, but for my budget, if I was forced to buy a dedicated pre/pro, it would be extremely likely an Onkyo/Integra, simply due to features desired, at a price point that few can compete with.


Now for the video, I agree it would benefit you if have many video sources. I pretty much only watch native hidef (bluray) and I don't need any VP for it. Mind you, the best VP (if it IS that important to you) will be had in an outboard processor, and with the budget you're looking at, you can get a very high end VP with, say, an Integra. Something tells me it's not that important, since you're watching a 5 yo plasma, and not a projector in a dedicated movie theater. (btw, I'm a very big fan of Pana plasmas).

Um, that's it for now, yeah. I vote for the Denon.

 

[PBMax]

I have given thought to the Integra seps and have looked at the Onkyos as well. Seems like good stuff and I really liked some of the stuff on the latest Integra processor.

Kind of difficult to convince the wife to get rid of a TV that retailed for $8,000 when we bought it. We did get lucky on the purchase though. The guys at Ken Cranes kind of sold us on the idea of that TV, but we had to think a bit. We saw the same set at Pacific Sales for $6,500, but wanted to give the first shot to Ken Crane's, since they did the work. When we went back there and told them of the competing price, they verified and asked us to go buy it down the street! Probably didn't have enough stock to justify letting one go at a $1,500 discount when they were cutting edge.

I'm working on the wife now that at some point in the upgrade process, a new TV will be part of it.

 

[jostenmeat]

The best thing about Ken Crane's, if they haven't changed their policy, is that they had a 7 day return policy. Now, that might not seem like much, but if it's B&W, that's nice. OTOH, they never carried too much of the high end, although I did listen to a pair of 802Ds, but in a room so bad you could not believe it. Ken Crane's, when I tried to figure out how low they could go, had a similar store wide policy as Tweeter (before they left CA), and that was basically no room for negotiation, at least on most things of interest.

A new TV? Get a Pioneer KRP600M, target goal being $3k. If extraordinarily lucky, less than that, though very likely more than that. They are just about all gone. It is 99.9% the same TV as the Sig 141, and last time I saw that, what a month ago, was in a Magnolia for $7k. Then, when the wife is out of town, have the ControlCAL patch installed with full calibration. (Hey, no new shiny component to set her off).

Oh btw, where did you pick up your speakers? I have never heard of them before, and a quick google doesn't show me much at all.

 

[PBMax]

I have to have one more post to post links. This post is for nothing but post count.

 

[PBMax]

I picked up the Aelites when a place in Redondo Beach was clearing out the last of their stock. That place is called Defiinition Audio

http://definitionav.com/home

Here is the homepage for the speakers, which are made in England:

http://www.acoustic-energy.co.uk/Product_range/Aelite_series/index.asp

I have the cherry fronts as shown and the center is in black.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yeah, I would go for separates too - like Emotiva or something.

I like my Denon 5308 a lot. I'm actually using all 6 HDMI inputs and 2 HDMI outputs!

But looking back, it's kind of expensive.

I think the Yamaha Z11 is just as good and has a much lower street price. It also has a 5 yr warranty (versus 3 yr warranty on the Denon).

However, since you are a DENON guy, I think you probably feel more comfortable with another Denon receiver, instead of Yamaha or others.

But if I were to start all over in a year, I would just get the Emotiva XPA5 + their new upcoming flagship prepro (1 up from the UMC-1).

 

[AVRat]

Have you considered the Denon 4810? Although, if you're considering going 7.1 via height channels, then maybe the Onkyo 5007 would be a good option. From early reviews, Dolby PLIIz or Audyssey DSX seem to implement the height channels better than Yamaha's presence implementation.

 

[PBMax]

Hey AcuDef--I've followed some of your posts regarding your experience with your 5308, so I'm a little surprised by your response. While I've been geting pretty worked up and have been "shopping" for the past year or so, I still wouldn't say it's "urgent." I'm targeting a first quarter of 2010 for my purchase. The reason I mention that is that hopefully the latest and greatest will be out from Emotiva. Do you know their target release?

AVRat - I have considered the 4810, but my understanding is that the video processing is superior in the 5308. Not being one to update often, I want to get the best I can afford. I have mixed feelings on the Onkyo based on what I've read(more good than not, but still mixed), so I don't know if I'd be comfortable going that route.

BTW, I appreciate you guys taking the time to respond as I've enjoyed reading many of your other posts as a lurker.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Hey AcuDef--I've followed some of your posts regarding your experience with your 5308, so I'm a little surprised by your response. While I've been geting pretty worked up and have been "shopping" for the past year or so, I still wouldn't say it's "urgent." I'm targeting a first quarter of 2010 for my purchase. The reason I mention that is that hopefully the latest and greatest will be out from Emotiva. Do you know their target release?

I know how you feel.

I think a year ago if everyone had recommended that I buy "something else", I would have still bought the Denon 5308.

If you believe Home Theater Magazine lab measurements, the pre-pro section of the AVR5308 actually OUTPERFORMS the Denon AVP-A1HDCI pre-pro in terms of SNR, Crosstalk, & THD!

Also on paper, the Denon 5308 "outperforms" other dedicated pre-pros like ANTHEM and other $6K+ pre-pros in terms of SNR, Crosstalk, & THD.

Of course "outperforms" is in terms of insignificant margin and is relevant only on paper.

But it tells you that the Denon 5308 is extremely high quality in both audio and video. And that is the reason I bought it.

But just like EVERYTHING else in life, after you own something for a while, it somehow becomes less and less "important" and you begin to think about "practical", instead of "hardcore".

I would place the Denon 5308 in the "hardcore" category.

So after a year or so, I'm more in the "practical" mode, and Emotiva is more practical.

The only problem with Emotiva is the WAIT time.
You can never tell how long you have to wait regardless of the "expected release date".

I got the 5308 from J&R for $4,000 delivered (no tax, no s/h). Of course, at the time I also had $1,000 of gift cards from J&R, so I paid $3,000 out of pocket.

I don't think any separate pre-pro (regardless of price) will outperform the Denon 5308, especially in the "practical" category.

I mean some separate amplifier could easily output 300+ watts, but in terms of practicality for most applications, I just don't see any separates pre-pro + amp "outperforming" the 5308.

If you have plenty of money to play with, the Denon 5308 is a great receiver.

I truly believe the Denon 5308 is the BEST receiver on the market TODAY.

 

[PBMax]

OK AcuDef, that may be all I need to hear. I'm will ing to spend up to about the point of the price of the 5308 to be confident that I'll be happy with my purchase. Who knows, Denon might put out a 5310 in the next few months, which of course will feature at least 2 more surround outputs, the next generation of HDMI and just enough other goodies to make me second guess, but still unable to pass up a blowout deal on the 5308. Willing to pay around $3,500 or so, but wouldn't be surprised if a smokin' deal comes along if the cards fall right.

Beyond that, I think if I get the Oppo BDP-83 I'll have to hook it up with S-video and component audio to my 4802. Also, the line out to the TV is still component. Will the output to the TV still be terrific? Will I notice a great difference once I hook up the 5308(if that's where things end up)?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Beyond that, I think if I get the Oppo BDP-83 I'll have to hook it up with S-video and component audio to my 4802. Also, the line out to the TV is still component. Will the output to the TV still be terrific? Will I notice a great difference once I hook up the 5308(if that's where things end up)?

You mean Component VIDEO?

So the Oppo BD player's 1080p Component Video directly to TV - that's fine. It's still 1080p - you won't see a difference between Component 1080p vs HDMI 1080p.

Then the Oppo BD's 5.1 Analog Composite Audio cables to the 5.1 Analog of the 4802 - that's fine for PCM audio.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...Denon might put out a 5310 in the next few months...

Unless the 5310 can upscale to 4K resolution video, I still don't see much of an upgrade from the 5308.

It might have 8 HDMI 1080p inputs, instead of 6.

You still get same 7.1 DTS-HD MA & TrueHD.

And since the 5308 "outperformed" the $7,500 Denon AVP pre-pro in terms of SNR, Crosstalk, and THD%, I would also have to wait to see if the 5310 is more or less.

I would be just a tad bit upset, since I'm a "Spec-whore", if I waited and waited for the "5310" and it ended up "under-performing" the 5308. There is no guarantee here.

 

[jostenmeat]

The reason I mention that is that hopefully the latest and greatest will be out from Emotiva. Do you know their target release?

People have been asking that question for years! I think it's soon though.

AVRat - I have considered the 4810, but my understanding is that the video processing is superior in the 5308.

The real question, assuming there is even a difference, is that if you even need it. My reasoning: once you watch blu-ray, nothing else is even close.

Firstly, I've visually compared my HDA35 (one of the best DVD upconverters at its time), against the DMP-BD30 (one of the worst DVD upconverters at its time), and while the difference is there, discernible, once you compare either with blu-ray, I think :"Who cares?!". And that's with a more extreme difference than usual in upconversion.

Secondly, it might also depend on the display you finally choose. Some folks, or even some professionals like bandphan here, prefer and believe that the VP of their Pioneers is superior to most any receiver as it is. So, they would consider spending so much more on a receiver just for VP to be a waste of money if you have an Elite. Also figure that these displays offer superb calibration flexibility, even both day and night calibrations for every source. Even the 5308 can't do that.

Who knows, Denon might put out a 5310 in the next few months, which of course will feature at least 2 more surround outputs. . .

As it is, the 4810 (as AVRat mentioned), is already the only receiver that can handle 11.1 Audyssey DSX at the moment. So you're ok there.

Beyond that, I think if I get the Oppo BDP-83 I'll have to hook it up with S-video and component audio to my 4802. Also, the line out to the TV is still component. Will the output to the TV still be terrific? Will I notice a great difference once I hook up the 5308(if that's where things end up)?

In all honesty, it is possible that once you hook up that bdp, you might not care for VP anymore. For best video, focus on the best display. Well, that's my opinion.

 

[PBMax]

Thanks again, you guys have been really helpful. I'd like to say my wife is gonna hate you guys for getting me all fired up, but I think you've tried to save me money, not talk me out of more of it.

Plus, she's knows me well enough not to let me blame it on you guys!

 

[AVRat]

Since you're looking at purchasing next spring or so, as am I, FYI Denon has a mid-level pre-pro in the works that may be slated for release next year. They had one based around the 4310 but I don't think they thought it was marketable enough, put it on hold, and I think the new one may be more based around the 4810/5308. The model was AVP-CIX and hopefully there is news during CES.

The 4810 can be had for $2200 or maybe lower: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=642960&postcount=10