Unraveling of America? Is the decline of our "empire" a given at this point?

J

Jeff R.

Audioholic General
You're guessing on whether we should have worn masks in March?

It maybe time to make that otolaryngologist appointment.

Reality begs to differ, and the people who needlessly died.
So is that Trump or Fauci? I guess I am not sure. Trump a non medical expert should override Fauci and the CDC guidance. I just want to be sure that is what you want. The guidance was quite clear from the CDC at the time.


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Trell

Trell

Audioholic General
So is that Trump or Fauci? I guess I am not sure. Trump a non medical expert should override Fauci and the CDC guidance. I just want to be sure that is what you want. The guidance was quite clear from the CDC at the time.


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You are rewriting the history of Trumps handling of the pandemic as if Trump has no responsibility at all. It is a very false narrative you are promoting.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Audioholic Slumlord
Sadly not nil, but at least a some thousands (tens?) fewer deaths if Trump had acted earlier.
Of course it is speculation what would have happened with action in Dec. You would have certainly start isolating international flights and ships, border crossing. Inform the public etc. Cannot reboot the scenario.
 
Ponzio

Ponzio

Audioholic Samurai
So is that Trump or Fauci? I guess I am not sure. Trump a non medical expert should override Fauci and the CDC guidance. I just want to be sure that is what you want. The guidance was quite clear from the CDC at the time.


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You've heard the Woodward tapes with Trump, yes/no?

So now it's Dr. Fauci's fault.

Who besides the dog and Dr. Fauci ate his homework?
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
So is that Trump or Fauci? I guess I am not sure. Trump a non medical expert should override Fauci and the CDC guidance. I just want to be sure that is what you want. The guidance was quite clear from the CDC at the time.
Jeff, Fauci and the CDC admitted to the big lie months ago, that they told people masks weren't necessary to keep people from hoarding them and making masks, especially N95 masks, unavailable for healthcare workers. I disagree with what they did, but it's time to get over it and wear masks. End of story.

 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic General
Of course it is speculation what would have happened with action in Dec. You would have certainly start isolating international flights and ships, border crossing. Inform the public etc. Cannot reboot the scenario.
All those weeks/months in the beginning when he was publically downplaying the severity of the virus and claiming it was a Democratic hoax was some very important time lost that could be used for preparations. The various US states was left to compete bid against each other to get medical supplies, for instance.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Audioholic Slumlord
Jeff, Fauci and the CDC admitted to the big lie months ago, that they told people masks weren't necessary to keep people from hoarding them and making masks, especially N95 masks, unavailable for healthcare workers. I disagree with what they did, but it's time to get over it and wear masks. End of story.

And, early on, the spread mechanism wasn't fully understood?
 
J

Jeff R.

Audioholic General
I do understand that the guidance was to prevent the toilet paper rampage episodes from reoccurring and decimate mask availability. I get it. Once again what other option was there? Have the public hoard all the masks that our health care and other vital workers needed. There was not a supply chain designed for this demand and it takes time to realign the needed supplies.


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J

Jeff R.

Audioholic General
Our company and many other food companies had to instantly find masks for our employees that were never before purchased in our business. We are talking millions and millions of masks being gobbled up from every supplier these companies could find them. Our sourcing teams were working around the clock to have the PPE for our people . Every other food industry was doing the same.


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highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
Easy. He doubled down on it. :D
And the swamp? Now it's filled with Perrier water.


China is paying for it. Didn't you get the memo from Trump? ;) :D
Not sure if you have seen it, but many manufacturers are pulling out of China and having goods made elsewhere. They'll be hurting in ways they never imagined.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
Here's a start, how about after he found out how deadly the virus was in February you warn the country to be careful and wear a mask for starters and not calling it a Democratic hoax.

Just spit-balling here.
Did anyone really know how deadly it is? We're finding out about new complications almost daily.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic General
Did anyone really know how deadly it is? We're finding out about new complications almost daily.
You're sure carrying Trumps water full time, even though you say you are no Trump supporter. :rolleyes:
 
J

Jeff R.

Audioholic General
Of course it is speculation what would have happened with action in Dec. You would have certainly start isolating international flights and ships, border crossing. Inform the public etc. Cannot reboot the scenario.
I think that we had some limited information. We may have heard some grumbling about it from China in the fall. We are not in a position to trust what the Chinese government was releasing about this, and certainly could not have taken any immediate action. I think the way China conducted themselves based on what we know now that this is true.

The government still needed to vet the data and find out what the disease is and how it needs to be managed. I am pretty sure the CDC was pulled in early on this and provided support.

I just think that while data research and investigation is taking place we are not in a position to communicate the the public.


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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
CDC estimated in March 200k - 1.7MM deaths at that time. So it seems like we did fairly well. At the lower side of the scale. I get we are not out of the woods yet but death rates are slowing. Hospitals are doing better at treating those in need.
You just bought into Trump's narrative hook, line, and sinker!

The estimate of 1.7 million US deaths was a worst-case scenario based on absolutely no action being taken to slow the virus! This estimate was calculated by the CDC a couple of weeks after Trump put Pence in charge.
(see link below if you never questioned the model that resulted in 1.7 million deaths)

That is a ridiculous standard for evaluation.

If I am a pilot of a 727 with 180 people on board and I do nothing, the projected number of deaths would be 180.
So you are saying if I land the plane with only 9 flight-related deaths, my score should be an "A" at 95%? Because that is exactly how Trump wants you to evaluate his performance.
The reality is that if Trump did nothing, other people would do something (like the merchants who require masks be worn in their stores, or the closing of schools before graduation last year).
A worst-case do-nothing prediction is mostly a pointless exercise, unless you are wanting such a low bar to compare your performance against, that it is virtually impossible to do poorly!


So it seems like we did fairly well. At the lower side of the scale. I get we are not out of the woods yet but death rates are slowing. Hospitals are doing better at treating those in need.
You seem to think this is mostly over! I would bet we are less than half way through the death toll (if Trump stays president). The rate of spread is expected to increase as temperatures decrease and like the Spanish Flu, it is very likely the coming flu season will be worse than what we saw the first half of this year.

Why don't you think it is more realistic to compare our "rate of death per capita" with that of other countries.
Don't you think we should be able to do as well as many less wealthy, more crowded (easy spread of virus) countries?

... how would you or your preferred candidate have changed it?
This is what Biden proposes doing to try to get back on top of things (immediately and long term). Sounds pretty practical to me!:

  1. Fix Trump’s testing-and-tracing fiasco to ensure all Americans have access to regular, reliable, and free testing.
    • Double the number of drive-through testing sites.
    • Invest in next-generation testing, including at home tests and instant tests, so we can scale up our testing capacity by orders of magnitude.
    • Stand up a Pandemic Testing Board like Roosevelt’s War Production Board. It’s how we produced tanks, planes, uniforms, and supplies in record time, and it’s how we can produce and distribute tens of millions of tests.
    • Establish a U.S. Public Health Jobs Corps to mobilize at least 100,000 Americans across the country with support from trusted local organizations in communities most at risk to perform culturally competent approaches to contact tracing and protecting at-risk populations.

  2. Fix personal protective equipment (PPE) problems for good.
    Joe Biden will take responsibility, rather than leave states, cities, tribes, and territories to fend for themselves, and focus on producing more of these critical supplies in the United States. He will:
    • Fully use the Defense Production Act to ramp up production of masks, face shields, and other PPE so that the national supply of personal protective equipment exceeds demand and our stores and stockpiles — especially in hard-hit areas that serve disproportionately vulnerable populations — are fully replenished.
    • Build now toward a future, flexible American-sourced and manufactured capability to ensure we are not dependent on other countries in a crisis.

  3. Provide clear, consistent, evidence-based national guidance for how communities should navigate the pandemic — and the resourcesfor schools, small businesses, and families to make it through.
    • Social distancing is not a lightswitch. It is a dial. Joe Biden will direct the CDC to provide specific evidence-based guidance for how to turn the dial up or down relative to the level of risk and degree of viral spread in a community, including when to open or close certain businesses, bars, restaurants, and other spaces; when to open or close schools, and what steps they need to take to make classrooms and facilities safe; appropriate restrictions on size of gatherings; when to issue stay-at-home restrictions.
    • Establish a renewable fund for state and local governments to help prevent budget shortfalls, which may cause states to face steep cuts to teachers and first responders.
    • Call on Congress to pass an emergency package to ensure schools have the additional resources they need to adapt effectively to COVID-19.
    • Provide a “restart package” that helps small businesses cover the costs of operating safely, including things like plexiglass and PPE.

  4. Plan for the effective, equitable distribution of treatments and vaccinesbecause discovering isn’t enough if they get distributed like Trump’s testing and PPE fiascos.
    • Invest $25 billion in a vaccine manufacturing and distribution plan that will guarantee it gets to every American, cost-free.
    • As we enter the height of the political season, politics should play no role in determining the safety and efficacy of any vaccine. The following 3 principles should guide us: Put scientists in charge of all decisions on safety and efficacy; publicly release clinical data for any vaccine the FDA approves; authorize career staff to write a written report for public review and permit them to appear before Congress and speak publicly uncensored.
    • Ensure everyone — not just the wealthy and well-connected — in America receives the protection and care they deserve, and consumers are not price gouged as new drugs and therapies come to market.

  5. Protect Older Americans and Others at High Risk.
    Joe Biden understands that Trump’s failed response has made older Americans and others at high-risk even more vulnerable.

  6. Rebuild and expand the defenses that Trump has dismantled to predict, prevent, and mitigate pandemic threats, including those coming from China.
    • Immediately restore the White House National Security Council Directorate for Global Health Security and Biodefense, which was established by the Obama-Biden Administration and eliminated by the Trump Administration in 2018.
    • Immediately restore our relationship with the World Health Organization, which — while not perfect — is essential to coordinating a global response during a pandemic.
    • Re-launch and strengthen U.S. Agency for International Development’s pathogen-tracking program called PREDICT, which Donald Trump cut.
    • Expand the number of CDC’s deployed disease detectives so we have eyes and ears on the ground, including rebuilding the office in Beijing, which shrunk dramatically under Trump.

  7. Implement mask mandates nationwide by working with governors and mayors and by asking the American people to do what they do best: step up in a time of crisis.
    Experts say that if 95% of Americans wear masks between now and December, we can save almost 70,000 lives. Joe has called on:
    • Every American to wear a mask when they are around people outside their household
    • Every Governor to make that mandatory in their state
    • Local authorities to also make it mandatory to buttress their state orders
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Our company and many other food companies had to instantly find masks for our employees that were never before purchased in our business. We are talking millions and millions of masks being gobbled up from every supplier these companies could find them. Our sourcing teams were working around the clock to have the PPE for our people . Every other food industry was doing the same.
Sounds like you would recognize the value in having, oh, say, some kind of central authority buying the masks in bulk and prioritize distribution to those who's activities are in the best interest of our nation!
Instead, Trump left states and companies in a "free for all" fighting it out for PPE!
 
J

Jeff R.

Audioholic General
Sounds like you would recognize the value in having, oh, say, some kind of central authority buying the masks in bulk and prioritize distribution to those who's activities are in the best interest of our nation!
Instead, Trump left states and companies in a "free for all" fighting it out for PPE!
I am not sure I would put exactly that way. Biden’s solution is with hind site in mind. Or let’s call it a lesson learned. We do one at my company regularly to improve future performance. I am not sure I would fault Trump for not having this system in place. No prior administrations had thought to do it. No experts in our government who specialize in this did either.

It is a stretch to say Trump should have envisioned this 3 years prior and a put system in place.


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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I am not sure I would put exactly that way. Biden’s solution is with hind site in mind. Or let’s call it a lesson learned. We do one at my company regularly to improve future performance. I am not sure I would fault Trump for not having this system in place. No prior administrations had thought to do it. No experts in our government who specialize in this did either.

It is a stretch to say Trump should have envisioned this 3 years prior and a put system in place.
IMO, what Trump should have done as soon as he heard the facts about SARS-COV-2 was issue executive orders to centralize PPE buying and distribution, and limited consumer distribution of N95 masks. He should have invoked the Defense Production Act to produce PPE in the US as soon as possible, especially the paper or multi-layer cloth masks recommended for general purpose consumer use. This wouldn't be difficult. Numerous press sources were already making similar recommendations, but Trump ignored them, seemingly treating the federal government as his personal business, and seeing the states as annoying competitors to his authority. In emergencies leadership has a special meaning, and even W figured it out enough to get a very high approval rating after 9/11. (Of course, then he sort-of fabricated a war with Iraq about weapons of mass destruction and wasted thousands of lives and trillions of dollars on that folly, but I suppose that's another thread.) At least Trump did better enabling vaccine development.
 
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