Uncertainty

[everettT]

$2000 /pair ... plus grills.

Just a quick look intrigued me with the backwards 2.5 way design.

John is definitely being overly nice, as that speaker has enough issues to keep "most" away from it.

 

[Swerd]

John is definitely being overly nice, as that speaker has enough issues to keep "most" away from it.

As usual with John Atkinson's comments, what he doesn't say becomes as important as what he does say. I always feel like I need a lawyer to help me understand him. With that in mind, here's my take:

The mid range and higher seems to be good, on-axis. But off-axis, above roughly 1.5-1.7 kHz, the response drops significantly. See figure 4. It's dispersion and imaging must suffer. The reviewer didn't talk about that, and I wonder if his small room might have hidden that.

Both the reviewer and JA noted the bloated bass, but didn't comment any further about it. Why was the bass response mis-tuned? Was the cabinet too small or too large? The F3 by my eyeball is about 40 Hz. If the cabinet's bass tuning is cleaner – without any bloated bass – would the F3 be higher, say at roughly 50 Hz? Would a higher bass roll-off frequency have a negative impact on sales?

And finally, JA noted that with his measurements, the speaker's sensitivity was 87.5 dB, some 6.5 dB lower than the manufacturers value of 94 dB. That's a big difference.

For $2000 a pair, I'd pass on these speakers.

 

[ryanosaur]

Thanks for making me look at the BMR's again though. Is the flat pack hammered out yet?

I haven’t seen an update on the flat pack/box build. Dennis did say he found a guy and just needed to hammer out the details.

I wonder if this speaker lust thing ever eases up

I don’t think so.

 

[Swerd]

I haven’t seen an update on the flat pack/box build. Dennis did say he found a guy and just needed to hammer out the details.

Last week, Dennis told me this:

"I just heard from the BMR flat-pack and cabinet guy a few minutes ago. He's swamped and hasn't built a cabinet yet, although he does have the computer settings lined up. I'm not sure I'll hear any thing more until after Xmas."​

So, the flat-pack cabinets should be ready soon, but not yet.

Like Alex and others, I'm somehow interested in the BMRs. I certainly don't need them, but building a pair using the flat-pack kit would be fun. Fun only if I avoid the veneer and/or finish.

 

[shadyJ]

As usual with John Atkinson's comments, what he doesn't say becomes as important as what he does say. I always feel like I need a lawyer to help me understand him. With that in mind, here's my take:

The mid range and higher seems to be good, on-axis. But off-axis, above roughly 1.5-1.7 kHz, the response drops significantly. See figure 4. It's dispersion and imaging must suffer. The reviewer didn't talk about that, and I wonder if his small room might have hidden that.

Both the reviewer and JA noted the bloated bass, but didn't comment any further about it. Why was the bass response mis-tuned? Was the cabinet too small or too large? The F3 by my eyeball is about 40 Hz. If the cabinet's bass tuning is cleaner – without any bloated bass – would the F3 be higher, say at roughly 50 Hz? Would a higher bass roll-off frequency have a negative impact on sales?

And finally, JA noted that with his measurements, the speaker's sensitivity was 87.5 dB, some 6.5 dB lower than the manufacturers value of 94 dB. That's a big difference.

For $2000 a pair, I'd pass on these speakers.

I did hear a set of those speakers at a trade show, and I felt they sounded fine. As for bass, placement near surfaces and boundaries can inflate bass substantially, especially if the bass is tuned for a flat response. A tower speaker like that would probably do better with a gradually rolled off bass response. The horizontal off-axis response is actually pretty good, all things considered, and I don't think the things you are complaining about should even be considered flaws. If I was going to complain about something regarding this speaker, it would be the very narrow vertical listening axis. You really need to be at a +/-5 degree angle within the tweeter axis or else dips start to crop up. This happens in a lot of MTMs but in this one it is relatively severe. Some people regard limited dispersion in the vertical axis to be a good thing, but I have never seen any research to support that notion.

 

[Swerd]

shadyJ – I'm glad you've actually heard these speakers.

I did hear a set of those speakers at a trade show, and I felt they sounded fine.

I may have said that I hadn't heard these speakers in an earlier post. I should have repeated that. I was primarily speculating about what I noticed in JA's measurements – things about which he said little or nothing.

The horizontal off-axis response is actually pretty good, all things considered, and I don't think the things you are complaining about should even be considered flaws.

These were not complaints, so much as things I wonder about. I would have had to listen to them before I could complain. The difference in these words may not matter to some readers, but they do matter to me.

 

[ryanosaur]

I was kinda keeping my distance from this one... Thanks, Alex.

A 5-channel, or 7- channel, all BMR rig would be better than sex.
Ok, yes I’m prone to hyperbole.
Replacing the Mains, in that mythical rig with something "better" would entail a mighty endeavor.
(OK, maybe not that mighty...)
But that's what I did, almost. Admittedly, I do wish I had bought an extra pair of BMRs when I ordered originally!

@Jack N , if you are even considering Salk, it's well worth the investment. I think just about anything you get from him will fall into the category of "Forever Speakers." As such, you should consider your plan carefully. The investment is well worth it. He built my mains, the Phil 3s, start to finish for Dennis while he was out of commission. Dennis, having designed most (if not all) of Jim's crossovers, has a very deft touch with getting a clean and accurate sound. Matching speakers from Dennis was as simple as him encouraging me to just keep all Raals for the tweeter. The fact I have different mids (BG Planars and Tectonic BMRs) and different woofers (both ScanSpeak, but different models) doesn't matter. Hell, even my 2-Way speakers from Dennis blend well with the whole system... they have Raal tweeters, too!
But now, I'm very glad I didn't take the trip to Utah to listen to the Tektons. I did enjoy my conversations with Eric: I found him to be knowledgeable and very dedicated to his craft. For me, there was a little too much faith involved in buying from Tekton though. It was almost more of a "trust me, it'll be fine," kind of situation when I asked more specific questions.
I'm not a person that takes that lightly.
When I had the chance to listen to Dennis' speakers (Philharmonic Audio), just a few hours drive away from my home, I took it. After hearing them, I emailed Dennis immediately and told him I was ordering, then cancelled my travel plans to UT.
Though I am still supremely interested in what Eric is doing, and grateful for his willingness to talk to me as much as he did, I have no second thoughts.
My take on the Tekton conversation is: They likely sound amazing in the right set up, and probably require a narrow LP. One YT reviewer mentioned that Eric re-did the speakers "a few years back" to improve dispersion... but that is one aspect that seems to hang around in most Tekton conversation... that they still are pretty narrow. *shrugs I was more turned off by the sensitivity falsification than anything else. Not because I wanted extremely loud speakers, but it just reinforced the sense that I was getting the full story.
We've talked here on AH so much about what is audible and what isn't, in terms of speaker performance and distortion... This is a prime example, I think, of speakers that may have issues, but sound great in spite of them. Lets face it, there are a lot of Tekton fans out there, including some repeat customers (one guy comes to mind, posted here last year that he was getting DIs to replace his Pendragons!)

At this point, now a year almost since I first heard the Phil 3s, ~11 mos since receiving my BMRs and ~6mos since receiving the 3s, I still have yet to hear anything remotely affordable that makes me question what I bought. If I had to do it all over again, but with Dennis/Philharmonic Audio removed from the equation... I would order from Jim. Hands down. Nothing else I've heard comes close to sounding so easy and natural.

My 2¢, ymmv.

 

[Jack N]

To be honest, I hadn’t thought about using BMRs up front. That’s a thought. I’m going to have to toss that one around. Thanks shadyJ.

Speaking of BMRs, what is the “flat pack” that alex2507 is talking about? Is it something that will change the price or the sound?

Ryanosaur – I’m so jealous of your speakers. Phil 3s & BMRs! That must sound heavenly! How I wish I had bought that combo and stored them until I was ready for them. Speaking of Dennis, do you know what happened? All I know is that he was in the hospital for a while.

I find Erics’ thoughts on speaker design intriguing as well. In fact, very much so. It’s unfortunate his business acumen leaves something to be desired. One thing that does surprise me about his tweeter array is the narrow vertical window. I know it’s somewhat common for MTM configurations, but how can you have a narrow window with all those tweeters!! Almost defies logic. There’s got to be some big-time cancellation going on.

 

[ryanosaur]

Speaking of BMRs, what is the “flat pack” that alex2507 is talking about? Is it something that will change the price or the sound?

Philharmonic Audio BMR Speaker Kit - Meniscus Audio

The Philharmonic Audio, BMR Philharmonitor by Dennis Murphy

meniscusaudio.com

No flat packs yet... per Swerd's post earlier... but fingers crossed it will be soon!

 

[ryanosaur]

Speaking of Dennis, do you know what happened? All I know is that he was in the hospital for a while.

Toward this, he is well. He posted some info on 'his thread' over at that other site. Sadly, though, he did shutter Philharmonic.
Regardless, as I understand, he is back with the Orchestra, and is is still actively working on some designs.

If you are good at woodworking, he mentioned somewhere that for a donation to his favorite charity, plans for the Phil 3 could be had, too. FWIW, Salk has said that it was the most complicated build they did: not for the faint of heart!

 

[ryanosaur]

To be honest, I hadn’t thought about using BMRs up front. That’s a thought. I’m going to have to toss that one around.

This from when I was using three BMRs up front.

B-M-WOW! A tribute to the BMR, and my journey to them..

A few know I've been waiting for my BMRs to come in from @Dennis Murphy / Philharmonic Audio. This has been a long strange trip for me, getting to this point. I'm very glad I am part way on my journey, and I wouldn't have gotten here without the help of many here at Audioholics... which...

forums.audioholics.com

And then:

Philharmonic 3... Packing and shipping

And then? Hmmm... somebody else is interested too! Ok... the next step might take a moment. Please be patient. That means YOU, @Russdawg1 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

forums.audioholics.com

Phil 3s & BMRs! That must sound heavenly!

I feel very fortunate, and am supremely grateful that this came together. Dennis and Jim both played their part in making this happen. It wasn't easy.

But heavenly indeed!

Cheers!

 

[Swerd]

One thing that does surprise me about his tweeter array is the narrow vertical window. I know it’s somewhat common for MTM configurations, but how can you have a narrow window with all those tweeters!! Almost defies logic. There’s got to be some big-time cancellation going on

The narrow vertical window is due to the placement of the woofers relatively far from each other. The large circular array of 7 tweeters between them takes up more space than a single tweeter. This distance between the woofers causes the cancellations, as the listener changes position vertically. See three cancellation troughs, centered at roughly 600, 1500, and 3000 Hz, in figure 5 in the Stereophile review of the Tekton DI monitor:

"In the vertical plane (fig.5), the use of two woofers spaced relatively far apart leads to major cancellations in the midrange above and below the response on the central tweeter axis, which again appears as a straight line. The Impact Monitor's vertical radiation pattern suggests that the speaker needs to be listened to within a narrow window centered on the central tweeter axis if the midrange balance is not to sound colored."​

 

[Alex2507]

what is the “flat pack” that alex2507 is talking about?

It's the cabinet disassembled and the pieces stacked up, laying one piece flat on the other for shipping purposes. The details are being worked out for cost.

 

[D Murphy]

It's the cabinet disassembled and the pieces stacked up, laying one piece flat on the other for shipping purposes. The details are being worked out for cost.

Right--the woodworking shop has to build one of the flat packs to come up with a firm price, and with the Xmas rush I'm not expecting that to happen until early in the New Year. The shop will also offer an assembled version, which can be stained and finished to order. They're making everything out of Baltic Birch, so I don't think piano black will be an option unless automotive paint can fill the grain.

 

[Jack N]

A BMR kit!!! Wow!!! What a great idea!!! I'll be waiting.

Ryanosaur - I've been reading little bits of the threads you linked as I get time. So now I'm wondering if you would have done anything different now that you've had several months of listening.

 

[ryanosaur]

A BMR kit!!! Wow!!! What a great idea!!! I'll be waiting.

Ryanosaur - I've been reading little bits of the threads you linked as I get time. So now I'm wondering if you would have done anything different now that you've had several months of listening.

Ha-No!

I'm not going to write another epic description of why I... Like @Swerd , am a fan of @D Murphy ... After listening to speakers north of $25 K at the CAS this year... I know I have nothing to be jealous of in terms of what other people are buying.

If you have not experienced accurate, flat speakers... you should. Try to find some to listen to. My experience as a musician says that these are the best speakers. I use them for Music and some HT. They reproduce sound clean and make it sound effortless. I enjoy Rock, Hip Hop, Jazz, Electronica, Orchestral... I listen in Stereo and in Muti-Channel 5.1. I have no complaints.

 

[D Murphy]

The narrow vertical window is due to the placement of the woofers relatively far from each other. The large circular array of 7 tweeters between them takes up more space than a single tweeter. This distance between the woofers causes the cancellations, as the listener changes position vertically. See three cancellation troughs, centered at roughly 600, 1500, and 3000 Hz, in figure 5 in the Stereophile review of the Tekton DI monitor:

"In the vertical plane (fig.5), the use of two woofers spaced relatively far apart leads to major cancellations in the midrange above and below the response on the central tweeter axis, which again appears as a straight line. The Impact Monitor's vertical radiation pattern suggests that the speaker needs to be listened to within a narrow window centered on the central tweeter axis if the midrange balance is not to sound colored."​

View attachment 32696

One issue to keep in mind is that there is a distinction between uneven vertical dispersion--caused by cancellation modes--and limited vertical dispersion, where the response drops off smoothly above and below the speaker. If the drop-off isn't severe enough to mandate a head-in-vice listening position, it's possible that there are sonic advantages to limiting vertical dispersion. A local electrical engineer and I are trying to get to the bottom of that question with a large tower speaker that is designed to control vertical dispersion without introducing serious driver cancellations. I've worked out the crossover for the simpler version, and am going to try my hand at a more complex and sensitive version. It should be interesting to compare these speakers with conventional towers.

 

[shadyJ]

One issue to keep in mind is that there is a distinction between uneven vertical dispersion--caused by cancellation modes--and limited vertical dispersion, where the response drops off smoothly above and below the speaker. If the drop-off isn't severe enough to mandate a head-in-vice listening position, it's possible that there are sonic advantages to limiting vertical dispersion. A local electrical engineer and I are trying to get to the bottom of that question with a large tower speaker that is designed to control vertical dispersion without introducing serious driver cancellations. I've worked out the crossover for the simpler version, and am going to try my hand at a more complex and sensitive version. It should be interesting to compare these speakers with conventional towers.

What do you think the advantages of a narrow vertical dispersion would be? I would think that, so long as the response isn't badly non-linear, it should sound pretty natural, much like lateral reflections. Of course, the vertical reflections of many speakers are far from perfect. I do remember reading about some study that was done on the effects of ground bounce cancellation in bass, and in the end it wasn't very deleterious because like many acoustics issues, human hearing seemed to adjust for it very quickly. Floyd Toole discusses it in his book, although I don't have my copy handy so I can't site the specific paper at the moment.

 

[Swerd]

If the drop-off [due to limited vertical dispersion] isn't severe enough to mandate a head-in-vice listening position, it's possible that there are sonic advantages to limiting vertical dispersion. A local electrical engineer and I are trying to get to the bottom of that question with a large tower speaker that is designed to control vertical dispersion without introducing serious driver cancellations. I've worked out the crossover for the simpler version, and am going to try my hand at a more complex and sensitive version. It should be interesting to compare these speakers with conventional towers.

Interesting. Conventional wisdom has it that our ears/brains readily adapt to floor & ceiling bounce. It may look severe in measured frequency responses, but it doesn't seem to matter so much to listeners. At least, that's what we're told. Those of us who live indoors are used to hearing things in the presence of floors and ceilings. I hope your efforts provide a useful answer to that question.

 

[Jack N]

Dennis - Any chance of a Phil 3 kit ???