Unbalanced

[SpiderBorland]

Was going to say "hope I can get great advice," but knowing this community's reputation... I know I will.

My understanding (and experience) is that in a well calibrated system, you should not be able to tell which speaker the sound is coming out of. It should just be all around you. UNLESS it's a sound that is meant to indicate directionality. (ie, there's an explosion behind you, or someone talks off screen stage right, etc). From my primary listening seat, the back left speaker is always dominant. Yes, I sit on the left side of the couch, but if calibrated right, it shouldn't be so overwhelming. I'll ask my fiance (who sits on the right side of the couch) where the sound is coming from and (up until recently) she would say it was coming from the back right speaker. The rear channels should not be that dominant.

Again, my understanding is that in a well calibrated system, any one speaker should not be dominant.

Ok, for starters, lemme break down my system:
Marantz NR1402
Front: Klipsch KG4
Center: Klipsch KV3
Rear: JBL L88 Nova
HDMI's connecting an Apple TV, Samsung Blu Ray, and an Xbox 360

The Front's are square against the wall, and just under a foot away from the wall.
The Rear's are toed (I think that's the right term) towards the center of the room. This is done for room aesthetics and not for sound direction.

The receiver has a calibration feature. Moving the little microphone around the listening positions, etc. I've done this twice now. Quiet room. Tripod raised to ear position. This is what got me where I am now. Unbalanced. I've been adjusting the levels of all the speakers daily. Lowering the rears and raising the fronts... just to try and bring balance, but still... that back left is glaring.

I was thinking of getting a decibel meter (and one of your stickies indicated doing that as well). I just wanted to be sure that this is the suggestion, or if something else is amiss. Also, when using the meter, from my listening position, I'm assuming that the goal is that every speaker should get the same reading. This would mean that all the speakers are broadcasting at the same volume. Right?

Woo... just realized how much I had typed...
Can't wait to hear from you all! Ready to get my system perfect!

 

[SpiderBorland]

Oh!
While I have your attention...
Should I go with Pure Direct or Multi Channel Surround?
If I understand, Pure Direct is a simulated/virtual setting, while Multi Channel sends exact signals (the source broadcasts a signal meant for the front right speaker... and it goes directly to the front right speaker. Not dissected in a virtual environment).

 

[herbu]

Oh!
While I have your attention...
Should I go with Pure Direct or Multi Channel Surround?
If I understand, Pure Direct is a simulated/virtual setting, while Multi Channel sends exact signals (the source broadcasts a signal meant for the front right speaker... and it goes directly to the front right speaker. Not dissected in a virtual environment).

First let's clear this up. I believe your understanding is backwards.
Pure Direct sends your input, unaltered, to the speakers. And my AVR sends it only to the Front L&R... (and subwoofers if set up so).
Multi-Channel does 2 things:
1) It includes any enhancements/alterations as you have set in your receiver
2) It sends the Left channel to Front Left AND Surround Left, and Right to Front Right AND Surround Right

So in Pure Direct, you should not hear your surround speakers at all. In Multi-Channel, your Left Surround gets the same signal as your Left Front, and your perception of volume now brings into play all kinds of stuff, like speaker efficiencies, placement, and room treatments.

A lot of people use one of their Stereo modes for music... either Stereo or Direct. (If the person/band was sitting right in front of you performing, you would not hear them coming from your rear, except echo and reflection.)

For TV/Music, I suggest one of the surround modes, not Stereo, Direct, or Multi-Channel. Using one of these 3 modes for TV/Movies means you lose all surround capability entirely. Stereo and Direct only come from the front, and Multi-Channel simply sends the front signal to the rear as well.

When you talk about the sound being predominant in the left-rear, what sound are you talking about? Music? TV? What mode is your AVR in?

 

[TLS Guy]

So let me get this straight.

You calibrate with the Audyssey microphone, correct? What db settings do you get? This is a 5.0 system as you don't mention a sub? Is that correct?

You say your JBLs are rear. However in a 5.0 or 5.1 set up those speakers should not be in the rear.

On the couch you are on the left and drawn to the left rear speaker, your partner is on the right and drawn to the right rear, correct?

Does this happen when you are playing a 5.1 source in discrete five channel sound such as DTS 5.1 Master HD?

This is the correct speaker placement for 5.1 and 7.1.

So we need more information. You are not correct in your understanding of pure direct. This just cuts out processing and bass management. It should not be used for multichannel music, just for stereo sources, is you think the processing mucks up the sound, which personally I don't believe it does. By multichannel do you mean the rear analog inputs? If so then those are for sources that lack a digital output, and then the source device must do the leveling.

I'm going to assume you have this problem with a BD player connected via HDMI.

The other issue is your old JBL surround speakers from 1973. They are two way speakers, with a woofer about 11" in diameter. So that large cone is going to be driven well into break up range and its going to really beam. In addition speakers from that era usually had a pretty rocky frequency response. I would bet there is a big rise in output in the 1 to 3 KHz range form an old design like that. That will really draw you to those speakers in addition to the usual proximity effect.

 

[SpiderBorland]

Right. Well. Never before have I felt like such an amateur! haha! XD

From Manual:
PURE DIRECT
This mode plays back tracks at the closest to the original sound quality.
Turn the display of the amplifier off to stop the analogue video circuit. This
suppresses the source of noise that affects sound quality.
•Surround back signals or front height signals are not created.
MULTI CH STEREO
This mode is for enjoying stereo sound from all speakers.
The same sound as that from the front speakers (L/R) is played back at the
same level from the surround speakers (L/R) and surround back speakers (L/R)

I must have been asleep when I read that... backwards. You are correct... which is good, because this was my original understanding of the settings, but was mislead (by myself). Besides, it makes me happy when that little blue light turns on. A spillover from my old Sony receiver that would light up blue when it was receiving a digital signal. Something I didn't know it did for the first 5 years of me using it.

Yes, I do have a sub. Sorry I missed that bit last night. I've added it up top. It's Sony SA-W2500. (my old one died, I needed something cheap, and this one had good reviews)
Amazon.com: Sony SA-W2500 Performance Line 100 Watt Subwoofer: Electronics
*Right, well, it seems I cannot edit those original posts.*

Currently, everything is set to Multi Channel, but I've been experimenting with different settings. We predominantly watch movies or play video games, so I didn't worry about settings for Music.

Placing the rear speakers on the sides is not possible in our room setup. I've got speakers in 4 corners.

Yes, I calibrate with the Audyssey microphone. I don't know what dB settings I get... because I've been fiddling with them to try and balance things out. I will say that the numbers were all over the place... as were the distances.

I suppose I could move my JBL's to the front, if that's what you're suggesting. ((Though, I do hope to get some Cornwall's and move my KG4's to the rear))

Yes, when sitting on the left, I'm drawn to the left rear, and she, on the right, is drawn to the right rear. Suddenly, the idea of moving the JBL's to the front does seem like the obvious answer.

I've only played around with Multi and Pure, so I'm not sure what other settings sound like.

I've been using this exact setup for... 6 years now? Only recently did we move and FINALLY get the rear speakers wired up. In the old setup, the JBL's (rear) were farther away than they are now, though.

Your comments and questions have made me rethink everything I've ever known about AV.
Tonight when I get home, I'll rerun my Audyssey Setup and report back the dB settings.
Thank you both for your feedback!

 

[herbu]

Go to page 27 of your online manual.
Press the Surround button on your remote until it shows Auto.
Done.
Watch your TV/movies, play your games, and enjoy your surround.
(Forget about Multi Channel.)

Then at your leisure, study the manual, read the forums, experiment and learn. It's fun.

 

[SpiderBorland]

Just did a Reset and re-ran the Audyssey Calibration...
Front Left -5dB
Front Right -4
Center -5
Subwoofer -12
Surround L -4
Surround R -3

 

[rojo]

You might ought to turn the volume down a bit on your sub and run it again. After running Audyssey you'll probably end up turning up the subwoofer volume in the receiver's audio settings, but you ought to start from a flat correction first. If Audyssey set your sub volume to -12, it ran out of room to correct.

Sent from my LG-VS980 using Tapatalk

 

[SpiderBorland]

You might ought to turn the volume down a bit on your sub and run it again. After running Audyssey you'll probably end up turning up the subwoofer volume in the receiver's audio settings, but you ought to start from a flat correction first. If Audyssey set your sub volume to -12, it ran out of room to correct.

Sent from my LG-VS980 using Tapatalk

Sorry to sound ignorant, but what do you mean?

 

[herbu]

Sorry to sound ignorant, but what do you mean?

Audyssey has a max capability of 12db it can increase or decrease volume in a speaker. If it decreased your sub volume by 12db, that was the max it could do. Perhaps accurate balance is really -13db, or -20db, or whatever.

Your sub has a volume control on it. Audyssey instructions say to generally set the volume on your sub at the halfway point. But in your case, that is still too loud. If the volume knob on your sub is now at 12:00, try dropping it to 10:00, or 9:00, then rerun Audyssey. You at least want the Audyssey result to be less than plus or minus 12db.

Once it is "balanced", you can still increase or decrease it with your AVR controls... but remember where Audyssey had it so you can always go back to "accurate" if you want.

 

[SpiderBorland]

Audyssey has a max capability of 12db it can increase or decrease volume in a speaker. If it decreased your sub volume by 12db, that was the max it could do. Perhaps accurate balance is really -13db, or -20db, or whatever.

Your sub has a volume control on it. Audyssey instructions say to generally set the volume on your sub at the halfway point. But in your case, that is still too loud. If the volume knob on your sub is now at 12:00, try dropping it to 10:00, or 9:00, then rerun Audyssey. You at least want the Audyssey result to be less than plus or minus 12db.

Once it is "balanced", you can still increase or decrease it with your AVR controls... but remember where Audyssey had it so you can always go back to "accurate" if you want.

Thanks!
Last night I ran the Calibration and went ahead and did all 6 locations since the manual indicated that the more information I can give it, the better it can work. Now I'll re run it with the Sub turned down. Before I do that, though, just to be sure, should I move my JBL's to the front and the Klipsch the rear?

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks!
Last night I ran the Calibration and went ahead and did all 6 locations since the manual indicated that the more information I can give it, the better it can work. Now I'll re run it with the Sub turned down. Before I do that, though, just to be sure, should I move my JBL's to the front and the Klipsch the rear?

I would not do that. I suspect the Klipsch are the better speakers.

 

[SpiderBorland]

I would not do that. I suspect the Klipsch are the better speakers.

That's what I always figured, but it was pointed out that they will "really beam." If they shouldn't be moved to the front, I'm guessing they should just be dealt with until they can be replaced.

 

[rojo]

I'm not certain this'll work. It might even make things worse. But at least it's free to try, and you aren't stuck with the decision if it does more harm than good. But what if, instead of having the JBLs toed in to the center of the room, you point them directly at the side walls -- left speaker pointing at the left wall, and right at the right wall? The logic is that maybe hearing the sound reflected will make the contrast between channels less stark. It'll be less accurate as well, but it might be a worthwhile trade-off if your enjoyment of the sound improves.

I was thinking that in your situation, if you're sitting very close to the left surround and your wife to the right, that dipoles might help. Then I started thinking, you might achieve a similar effect by pointing your existing speakers directly at the walls. It won't cost you anything to try it.

And if it does work, then consider replacing those JBLs with a pair of dipoles (for the fix you need, but with high wife acceptance factor). If you're interested, put a bid on these and cross your fingers that no one else bids. But if my suggestion flops in practice, forget I said anything.

This is all just a wild guess, really. YMMV.

 

[SpiderBorland]

I imagine she'd be more likely to accept newer, smaller speakers, than visually having to deal with the backs of speakers! Perhaps that can work to my advantage!

You mentioned the toeing... what would happen if they weren't toed but flat against the wall. They wouldn't be pointed directly at me anymore.

 

[rojo]

I know one way to find out.

Sent from my LG-VS980 using Tapatalk

 

[herbu]

The logic is that maybe hearing the sound reflected will make the contrast between channels less stark.

I think his problem is using Multi Channel. He's sending the same volume to his surround left as to his front left. Since he's closer to the SR, it dominates.

SpiderBorland, put your AVR in Surround mode for TV/Movies as it was intended. As long as you keep using Multi Channel, ANYTHING else you do in an attempt to "fix" the sound will be laughable.

 

[SpiderBorland]

I've been following as much advice as I can. Recalibrated with the Sub set to the middle, and it only read something like -3dB (then turned it's volume back up). Set every input/Source to Auto. Everything sounds great now. Thank you, all! Though, I do believe that herbu's (albeit snarky) advice was what really did it. So, thank you, Herbu!

However, good call on turning the volume down on the Sub while in calibration. I didn't even realize I had it set so high.

Direct/Pure Direct: What situations would I use this? If I'm understanding it correctly, my Marantz will take the signal as received from the Source and not modify or "enhance" it all. The sound will play as intended. It seems that using this setting with my BluRay would be the way to go, but not necessarily with my 360 or Apple TV as individual channels don't always translate.

In my defense, I only just started experimenting with Multi Channel because the Pure Direct that I've been using from Day 1 wasn't sounding right anyway (finally got rear channels hooked up in my new house), and I misunderstood what Multi Channel did.

Sounds like I would only use Multi Channel to listen to music during a party, when all I want to do is fill a room with music (but not focus on it).

 

[MidnightSensi2]

I've been following as much advice as I can.

Feel free to continue to ask questions, it can be a lot to take in until you get the hang of it. ... but that's what we're for.

Recalibrated with the Sub set to the middle, and it only read something like -3dB (then turned it's volume back up). Set every input/Source to Auto. Everything sounds great now. Thank you, all! Though, I do believe that herbu's (albeit snarky) advice was what really did it. So, thank you, Herbu!

However, good call on turning the volume down on the Sub while in calibration. I didn't even realize I had it set so high.

If Audyssey set your subwoofer to -3dB, that's well within range.

And sure, you can adjust to taste.

Ideally, you want the subwoofer the blend with the mains, not sound like a separate unit. One of the biggest mistakes I see in systems is too much bass (from the subwoofer) versus midrange (from your mains). This causes kickdrums, the pop of gunshots, and other dynamic sounds of the lower midrange that give you that 'slam' in your chest to get lost in the bass. Paradoxically, this makes the bass sound LESS powerful. So, that's why Audyssey is trimming your bass to level it out (with the understanding that if you want more bass, you just turn up the volume).

Direct/Pure Direct: What situations would I use this? If I'm understanding it correctly, my Marantz will take the signal as received from the Source and not modify or "enhance" it all. The sound will play as intended. It seems that using this setting with my BluRay would be the way to go, but not necessarily with my 360 or Apple TV as individual channels don't always translate.

In my defense, I only just started experimenting with Multi Channel because the Pure Direct that I've been using from Day 1 wasn't sounding right anyway (finally got rear channels hooked up in my new house), and I misunderstood what Multi Channel did.

Sounds like I would only use Multi Channel to listen to music during a party, when all I want to do is fill a room with music (but not focus on it).

PURE DIRECT - For listening to stereo recordings (CD, SACD 2 channel, mp3, etc)
Disables Audyssey and signal processing, turns off displays when not in use. This is generally ideal for near field two channel listening, as it messes with the signal less.

STEREO - For listening to stereo recordings (CD, SACD 2 channel, mp3, etc)
Audyssey still active. If room is highly problematic, may be ideal for two channel, but, understand DSP has limitations. For example, it can lower the amplitude of a room mode/ringing/etc, but not remove it or clarify it.

MULTI-CHANNEL STEREO - Yup, parties or background music.
Stereo sound will play in both your fronts and rears. If your moving around the room, can keep the volume more even. In parties, people dampen sound, so, helps to offset that.

THX - For movies
Depending on the receiver is the name used, but, likely THX. When playing a blu-ray, your receiver should auto-detect if it's Masters Audio, etc.


...

I use two modes: Pure Direct (music) and THX (movies)

 

[herbu]

Though, I do believe that herbu's (albeit snarky) advice was what really did it. So, thank you, Herbu!

You're welcome. Sorry for the "snarky" advice, but it was the third time I told you lose the multi-channel mode and use your surround mode.

As for Direct/Pure Direct, I don't know how old you are, but think of it kind of like the old "Loudness" button that used to be on receivers.
At low volumes, you may find that Direct sounds thin and incomplete. The Stereo setting w/ your AVR enhancements will fill in and brighten the sound considerably at these low volumes. But at louder volumes, you don't need the enhancements, and Direct is not only more accurate, but sounds good.

Keep in mind one thing about Direct. It automatically, (and temporarily), changes the setting of your front left & right speakers to "Large". No bass management, no crossover, everything goes to your front left/right. The setting in your AVR for your subwoofer becomes key. If you have the sub set to "LFE", you will get nothing to your sub while in Direct. With this setting, your sub only gets the separate LFE signal, AND any signal below the crossover setting of your "Small" speakers. Since Direct only uses your front l/r speakers, and sets them both to "Large", and there is no LFE signal in music, nothing is sent to your sub in Direct. It contributes to the thin and tinny sound of Direct unless your front l/r are very, very good speakers.

However, if you change the sub setting in your AVR to "LFE + Main", the story changes. This setting means your sub is sent the separate LFE signal AND whatever is sent to your front left & right speakers regardless of whether they are set to "Small" or "Large". Now in Direct, you still get the benefit of bass from your subwoofer(s).

People prefer different things, but in summary, I use:
> Subwoofers set to "LFE + Main"
> "Stereo" for low volume music
> "Direct" for high volume music
> "Multi channel" for low volume party
> "Surround Auto" for TV/Movies/Bluray

Experiment and see what you like.