Two Subs Better Than One?

[gene]

Load up the bus. We will all be at Gene's for dinner!

I'm sure my wife would love to cook for everyone

 

[Adam]

I'm sure my wife would love to cook for everyone

Oh, she can sit back and relax. You all provide the entertainment, and we'll provide the food...and beer.

 

[jostenmeat]

What are your recommendations on determining the proper phasing of each separate sub? Is it as simple as phasing each sub separately by measuring output in terms of SPL to determine the correct setting, or is it more complex than that?

That's what I would do, but I'm sure it's more complex than that. If you feel like splurging, you might look into the SVS ASEQ1, as that will get your two subs in phase with each other. In fact, if ever I upgrade to dual subs, I'd most likely consider that unit as part of the overall upgrade cost. Perhaps that's why I don't see myself upgrading for a long time yet.

Edit: on a general side note, when you take distance measurements from speakers to listening position to enter the distance in the AVR do you take the measurement from the face of the speaker or sub, from the middle of the enclosure/cabinet or? I have never heard anyone comment on this before and I am curious.

I would think face of the speaker/sub.

I ask because my LCR cabinets are all of the same depth, but my front sub is obviously much deeper... so should I move the LCR channels forward into the room to match the distance measurement of the sub, or should I move the sub closer to the wall? Obviously both scenarios will alter the response of those channels. Does it even matter to align your front speakers distance wise?

What I *think* I've learned so far: I've heard that you have a better chance of getting holographic imaging if all of the speakers are equidistant. However, I have the personal impression that having adequate space from boundaries is the first priority, because of how great that effect can be in terms of FR.

I think you'll have to experiment. Personally, I'd simply go for best positioning on a per individual basis. As for the sub being closer to the wall, any boundary, corner, YMMV. I've never, ever heard a FR I liked with a corner loaded sub, but I have learned that one's best chance to use corner loading benefits (better efficiency/output, thus more headroom) happens when the room is significantly treated.

The answer to this question is typically yes, assuming you’re comparing one vs. two subs of the exact same brand and model #. In almost all circumstances, installing multiple subwoofers in your theater room will yield significantly better and smoother bass response across a wider listening area due to modal averaging. When deciding on getting either a single large sub, or two smaller ones, I'd usually recommend the latter. If its a hard sell to your wife, tell her you're not doing it for yourself but for the benefit of your mother-in-law.

Read: Are Two Subs Better than One?

Great. After you get everyone on this bandwagon, you're going to write up an article called, "Are Three Subs Better than Two?". After than, "Are Four Subs Better than Three?". Hide your wallets everyone!!!

 

[mike c]

using identical subs is usually easier to integrate. That being said, I run 2 velodyne DD15s and 2 RBH T30 subs in my main theater room which are drastically different subs. The reason why I got it to work very well is b/c the Velos allow me to change the slope of their low frequency roll off below 20Hz which I got to mimimick my ported T30s. The result is sonic heaven but it took some time and test gear to achieve.

that there is the key to multiple subs. (aside from fixing the phase of each of the subs) having flexible separate controls for each of the sub in the system is great. e.g. my new midbass sub was out of phase with the system, having a completely variable phase control on the DCX was great, it was as easy as rolling the jog dial to change the phase 0-180

of course, having an onscreen measurement of the FR was a big +.

 

[codexp3]

I'm sure my wife would love to cook for everyone

Have you thought about running dual wives? This adapted from your original post:

The answer to this question is typically yes, assuming you’re comparing one vs. two wives of the exact same brand and model #. In almost all circumstances, installing multiple wives in your home will yield significantly better and smoother cooking response across a wider stovetop area due to modal averaging. When deciding on getting either a single large wife, or two smaller ones, I'd usually recommend the latter. If it’s a hard sell to your wife, tell her you're not doing it for yourself but for the benefit of your mother-in-law.

 

[gene]

Have you thought about running dual wives? This adapted from your original post:

The answer to this question is typically yes, assuming you’re comparing one vs. two wives of the exact same brand and model #. In almost all circumstances, installing multiple wives in your home will yield significantly better and smoother cooking response across a wider stovetop area due to modal averaging. When deciding on getting either a single large wife, or two smaller ones, I'd usually recommend the latter. If it’s a hard sell to your wife, tell her you're not doing it for yourself but for the benefit of your mother-in-law.

I've often raised that argument with my wife but she wasn't too keen on that. Dual subs was a much easier sell

 

[Adam]

Dual wives, huh? From what I can tell, a lot of guys have enough trouble trying to place and dial in one of those. I'll wait for SVS or someone else to come out with the auto set-up box for two of them.

 

[rstock2@hotmail]

if two subs.....

so, let's say I go with two subs. Then that means I can use slightly smaller subs? And does smaller mean smaller diameter speakers or less amp wattage??
Ex: 1-12" sub = 2-10" subs of idential mfg and model.

In my case, I have a 28x30x14' vaulted ceiling = 9660 cu ft. It's a fairly "loud" room and a significant amount of glass. So, 1-12" or 1-15" OR 2-10s"? I was hoping to spend about $1000 and have been looking at Velodyne, Polk, MartinLogan, Klipsch and Mirage.

I'd want some "shaking" at the right times for certain movie tracks, but we watch more TV and lots of varied music. I don't need to shatter wine glasses or crack walls, but do appreciate clean, crisp and accurate (not mushy) base. I'm not as sophisticated as an audiophile techie, but probably would know bad bass when I hear it as I'm a professional guitarist and KNOW good music.

It will be part of the Mirage Omni OMD-15 surround sound technology and a Denon 3808 (120watts, 7.1).

My major concern when sub-shopping is that I have poor audio memory. That is, I can easily compare side-by-side subs swithching back and forth w/the same music while auditioning in a store, BUT the next day, I could audition a different brand with the same CD and not remember enough about the sound of the previous day's subs to even compare! So, I'm not the kind of guy who will shop back and forth forever...it's not practical. For the same reason, I'm not likely to be disappointed by I purchased and return it and try something new, because I won't remember the old while trying the new.

So, how do I cut through all this niggling (in a nice way ) that you guys do and just buy something(s) that will fit the bill. I'm "read out" when it comes to reviews. I've seen digital subs, some w/remots, some with preset equalizers for different kinds of music, etc. YIKES! Can we have some discussion to help this old guy out?? Thanks in advances. I'll be watching.

Richard

 

[Davemcc]

So, how do I cut through all this niggling (in a nice way ) that you guys do and just buy something(s) that will fit the bill.

That is what the subwoofer forum here is for. Start a new thread, describe your room, your expected use, aesthetic concerns, budget, etc. and in that particular forum, a lively debate will likely ensue on your behalf.

 

[TheFactor]

You need to figure out what finish to get first

 

[boarder1995]

so, let's say I go with two subs. Then that means I can use slightly smaller subs? And does smaller mean smaller diameter speakers or less amp wattage??
Ex: 1-12" sub = 2-10" subs of idential mfg and model.

In my case, I have a 28x30x14' vaulted ceiling = 9660 cu ft. It's a fairly "loud" room and a significant amount of glass. So, 1-12" or 1-15" OR 2-10s"? I was hoping to spend about $1000 and have been looking at Velodyne, Polk, MartinLogan, Klipsch and Mirage.

I'd want some "shaking" at the right times for certain movie tracks, but we watch more TV and lots of varied music. I don't need to shatter wine glasses or crack walls, but do appreciate clean, crisp and accurate (not mushy) base. I'm not as sophisticated as an audiophile techie, but probably would know bad bass when I hear it as I'm a professional guitarist and KNOW good music.

It will be part of the Mirage Omni OMD-15 surround sound technology and a Denon 3808 (120watts, 7.1).

My major concern when sub-shopping is that I have poor audio memory. That is, I can easily compare side-by-side subs swithching back and forth w/the same music while auditioning in a store, BUT the next day, I could audition a different brand with the same CD and not remember enough about the sound of the previous day's subs to even compare! So, I'm not the kind of guy who will shop back and forth forever...it's not practical. For the same reason, I'm not likely to be disappointed by I purchased and return it and try something new, because I won't remember the old while trying the new.

So, how do I cut through all this niggling (in a nice way ) that you guys do and just buy something(s) that will fit the bill. I'm "read out" when it comes to reviews. I've seen digital subs, some w/remots, some with preset equalizers for different kinds of music, etc. YIKES! Can we have some discussion to help this old guy out?? Thanks in advances. I'll be watching.

Richard

Hmmm...adding a second sub has its benefits but it doesn't double the sound output. The second unit can be placed near one of the seating positions to give you a nearfield source for bass which will help with impact. For $1k I'd consider a single SVS PB+. Other units to really consider if you don't mind a big box would be from Epik. I've tried dual Outlaws EX's (which are for sale) and loved the dual setup, but now have gone to a single SVS PB13 and thinking about duals again. You've got a LOT of volume to fill and to get a local vendor's sub you'd be out a lot more than $1k to fill that space. One man's thunder is another man's whisper, but even playing a good volume in your room will take a decent sub.

Oh and as mentioned before...start this in a new thread for better feedback.

 

[westcott]

Don't let Crosiv see this. He may get an idea!!!!!

 

[WmAx]

Two subs can double the output/SPL, but only if you place them within a foot or so of each other. If you place them on opposite sides of the room, the increase will likely be between 3-4dB, not 6dB(which is double).

-Chris

 

[Tumara Baap]

I have two subs and was not all that impressed. I'd be wary of the advice given by audioholics. If most of your listening occurs with six to eight of your seats occupied, and all listeners are equally critical of bass quality, it might be worthwhile to explore multiple subs.

But here are the downsides: In order to maintain extension, you still have to use good subs. Using multiple wimpy subs doesn't help you plumb the lowest octaves. It's just not cost effective. Even after investing in multiple subs, getting it right is not easy. Professional installers with the requisite software have to tweak delay, phase, amplitude, and global equalization in every permutation to yield good results. It is very labor intensive. And as has been pointed out by others, the output of multiple subs is subject to destructive interference so the increase in SPL is marginal, if any at all.

If only one to two of your seats are occupied 95% of the time (as they are in mine), it's wiser to channel your money to better loudspeakers. A single powerful sub plus PEQ is ideal for tuning the primary seat. And even then, the bass in all the others seats while not perfect is not shabby at all.

 

[njedpx3]

That would be ten bucks correct ?


Sounds of Silence as the forest leaf drops,

Forest Man

 

[TheFactor]

I have two subs and was not all that impressed. I'd be wary of the advice given by audioholics. If most of your listening occurs with six to eight of your seats occupied, and all listeners are equally critical of bass quality, it might be worthwhile to explore multiple subs.

But here are the downsides: In order to maintain extension, you still have to use good subs. Using multiple wimpy subs doesn't help you plumb the lowest octaves. It's just not cost effective. Even after investing in multiple subs, getting it right is not easy. Professional installers with the requisite software have to tweak delay, phase, amplitude, and global equalization in every permutation to yield good results. It is very labor intensive. And as has been pointed out by others, the output of multiple subs is subject to destructive interference so the increase in SPL is marginal, if any at all.

If only one to two of your seats are occupied 95% of the time (as they are in mine), it's wiser to channel your money to better loudspeakers. A single powerful sub plus PEQ is ideal for tuning the primary seat. And even then, the bass in all the others seats while not perfect is not shabby at all.

Im sorry but I have to disagree with you on some of your comments, first off You will get very good advice on this forum. You'll get much more good advice than you will bad and you just have to use some common sense when sifting threw suggestions. As far as dual cheap subs well you get what you pay for just like a single cheap sub. In my oppinion two quality subs when setup properly will out perform a single anytime hands down with proper setup with just a spl meter, you really dont have to be a professional I know from experience because im far from that as a matter of fact very far from that lol but I have my duals dialed in perfectly with just a basic setup guide. Yes you have to adjust your phase but its as simple as just using your spl meter and adjusting to were you get the most db increase from your main seating position or area so they dont cancel them self out. Again this is just my personal oppinion just like you have yours I just happen to disagree But please dont take my post the wrong way and im not trying to challenge you either its just I guess the first line on your post about being wary on this audioholics forum kind of made me raise a eyebrow. You really can get great advice here imo theres alot of very knowledgeable folks here that will go out of there way to help you

 

[gene]

I have two subs and was not all that impressed. I'd be wary of the advice given by audioholics. If most of your listening occurs with six to eight of your seats occupied, and all listeners are equally critical of bass quality, it might be worthwhile to explore multiple subs.

Hmm I guess you don't believe in scientifically provable facts but more power to you I suppose

If you chose wimpy subs and/or don't know how to properly set them up then yes you may not get good results with 2 subs. Multi subs for even a single seat can be a huge benefit especially when running them in stereo and setting the crossover higher for small satellite speakers.

 

[westcott]

I have two subs and was not all that impressed. I'd be wary of the advice given by audioholics. If most of your listening occurs with six to eight of your seats occupied, and all listeners are equally critical of bass quality, it might be worthwhile to explore multiple subs.

But here are the downsides: In order to maintain extension, you still have to use good subs. Using multiple wimpy subs doesn't help you plumb the lowest octaves. It's just not cost effective. Even after investing in multiple subs, getting it right is not easy. Professional installers with the requisite software have to tweak delay, phase, amplitude, and global equalization in every permutation to yield good results. It is very labor intensive. And as has been pointed out by others, the output of multiple subs is subject to destructive interference so the increase in SPL is marginal, if any at all.

If only one to two of your seats are occupied 95% of the time (as they are in mine), it's wiser to channel your money to better loudspeakers. A single powerful sub plus PEQ is ideal for tuning the primary seat. And even then, the bass in all the others seats while not perfect is not shabby at all.

I also agree and disagree with some of your comments.

The more speakers in a room, the better. This goes for subs, as well.

An SPL meter is a great tool and will work for most who are even willing to try to find a flat frequency response in the room.

I agree that most people will not benefit from dual subs, no matter the quality. The primary reason is that they rarely go to the trouble or even now how to properly setup and test for best subwoofer location(s). They just stuff them in the corners or stack them and thats that. Then, to add insult to injury, they crank up the volume and destroy the rest of the frequency range.

I disagree that equalization is the solution. Very few people have accurate enough equipment to properly equalize a room. I know of no affordable equalization system that provide the resolution to improve room audio quality. Even fewer who would know how to use it.

Equalization is far too complicated and cost prohibitive a solution to be recommended for anyone in the private sector.

So I do not think we are far off in principle. Just wish more people did more research into proper setup and testing instead of falsely trying to spend their way into a better sounding system.

 

[westcott]

Hmm I guess you don't believe in scientifically provable facts but more power to you I suppose

If you chose wimpy subs and/or don't know how to properly set them up then yes you may not get good results with 2 subs. Multi subs for even a single seat can be a huge benefit especially when running them in stereo and setting the crossover higher for small satellite speakers.

This may be a great way to make up for the inadequacies of less than full range primary speakers but hardly the ideal solution for ideal subwoofer placement, maximizing frequency response in the room, or providing a flatter frequency response over a greater seating area.

 

[TheFactor]

With my current setup dual subs made a night and day difference and was very easy to setup. The Bass fills my room more evenly now threw out I noticed it especialy when walking threw out my room when listening to music there is a lot less sweet spots and sounds better everywere. A spl meter and my avr test tones is all I used and maybe I got lucky I dont know but I have harder hitting bass now everywere and more even threw out the room with running less gain. Im very happy with adding another sub it was one of my best upgrades. Maybe not for everyones room but it sure worked with mine.Also it wasnt due to trying to make up for inadequacies in my speakers because my Paradigm v460's and cc-690center were amazing before and sound even better now it actually souunds like the bass is coming from my speakers at times and had to get up to see if it was my speakers pumping out the bass but of course the subsonic bass I knew exaclty were that was coming from