L

Loren42

Audioholic
Ribbons vs. Domes?

I have been using a pair of HI VI RT2H A ribbon tweeters and I thought I would try some soft dome tweeters as a comparison, so I hooked up a pair of Morel MDT-37 tweeters to a toggle switch so I could switch back and forth between the two sets.

Both have about the same sensitivity (Morel SPL = 93 dB 1W/1m vs. HI VI SPL = 94 dB 1W/1m), so I wanted to try the domes to see if it would improve the presence of the system since the ribbons are so/too directional. The answer is yes. The listening sweat spot is much bigger and I think the over all quality is a better experience, in my opinion.

However, how do these tweeters really rate compared to other dome tweeters?

In other words, are there better tweeters with about the same sensitivity that I should consider?
 
Spkr_Bldr

Spkr_Bldr

Full Audioholic
It's impossible to compare that way, even just 1db difference is big ... easily enough to make your stage come forward and shrink the sweet spot. Proper driver integration will do more for your stage width/depth than you think.

To answer you specifically, I don't much care for that particular HiVi Kapton tweeter ... and I very much like the MDT-37. I'm not surprised at all you like the 37 even in your brief test.

Good ribbons however can do some amazing things, I think it's due to their superiority in the time domain. The RAAL I'm using now is I think the best tweeter I've ever used/heard, and I also have in the closet some Scan 7000 Revelators, 6600 AirCircs, Seas Crescendos, Seas Magnums, Morel ST1108, and Accuton C30's, among others. All of which are amazing in their own right, but the RAAL makes them all sound slow and smeared. Other ribbons I've used have also gave me that same feeling, like the Raven R2.1 and Aurum Cantus G1 ... although both of them have a touch of the 'splashy' ribbon sound, the RAAL does not. Another World Class ribbon is the Raidho used in Eben speakers, and available (although not listed) from Parts Express. I haven't worked with it, but have heard it extensively.

Domes it's harder to categorize, so many sound alike. But notables include the Scan 7000 - probably the fastest and most detailed dome I've heard. The Seas Crescendo and the cheaper T25 variants, incredibly tonally accurate and maybe the smoothest dome I've heard. The Morel ST1108 and MDT33, some of the most dynamic domes made. And the Dynaudio Esotar variants, although not commercially available anymore they have incredible detail AND dynamics, but not as smooth as the Seas tweets. The Focal TC120TD5 is also a great dome, fast and detailed, but demanding of proper integration and quality components ... but done right it can sound excellent.

Cheap domes, you can't go wrong with the Vifa XT25 ring radiator and the new double magnet version ... they're just so smooth, but a bit laid back and lacking a touch of resolution. The Dayton RS28a is a great tweeter, and a bit of a irony - an aluminum dome that sounds more like a silk dome. It has good resolution, but also quite smooth and musical. And there's a new Tang Band dome that I'm absolutely loving for the cheap price, the 28-537SH.

Is that enough recommendations for ya :p
 
T

TheD

Enthusiast
w w w.zaphaudio.com/nondomes/

All of the ribbons in that test were beaten by a cheap Vifa neo dome,
All had far too high harmonic distortion.
 
L

Loren42

Audioholic
w w w.zaphaudio.com/nondomes/

All of the ribbons in that test were beaten by a cheap Vifa neo dome,
All had far too high harmonic distortion.
Thank you for that link!
 
L

Loren42

Audioholic
Spkr_Bldr,

Thanks for the information! The problem I have with my system is that I can not aim the speakers directly at the listener due to mounting constraints and that the area where listeners sit requires a somewhat wider field than the narrow beam of the HI VI delivers.

The first thing that I noticed with the Morel domes was that the sweat spot was so much wider than the ribbons. Off axis was so much louder that when I first flipped the toggles I thought that the Morels were going to be too loud. At center the volume was about the same as the HI VIs.

I plan to revamp my crossovers shortly. Right now I am using a 3-Way from Dayton, but I want to get my driver selection worked out first.

The mids are Eminance Alpha 6s.

The woofer is a Peavey Lo Rider 15, which isn't exactly a HiFi speaker, but does a remarkably good job down to the low 30 Hz range.
 
Spkr_Bldr

Spkr_Bldr

Full Audioholic
w w w.zaphaudio.com/nondomes/

All of the ribbons in that test were beaten by a cheap Vifa neo dome,
All had far too high harmonic distortion.
That data is pretty old, and only tests a few 'average' ribbons. Please don't draw any conclusions from it.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Do not assume the distortion was audible in most cases. Human hearing, with music program, requires about a [1] 2% THD before it becomes audible to the most sensitive human subjects. Please be aware that this value is based upon an averaged spectrum of harmonics that steadily decrease as you increase in order. A mechanical problem could result in non proportionate levels of high order distortion that would be audible even at 0.5%. But this is not the usual case. Almost all drivers have a similar type of decrease in harmonics as you increase in order. The amount of variance among different drivers in the first few orders, showing some variance in ratios, is usually not enough to be of concern. Now, the 2% value assumes full range distortion. It is likely that just a tweeter, being that the harmonics are in the lower sensitivity range of hearing, can have even more distortion than this before it becomes audible.

As for the OPs evaluation: totally invalid.

You have to match frequency response and integrate the drivers properly at the same crossover point, and ensure off axis response is similar near the crossover point, for the comparison to be valid. A proper comparison would require the use of a DSP based system to adjust for variables. In addition, for non - biased observation, you would need some way to do it blinded, which of course, would be very difficult to do at home properly. I'm just including this detail to let it be known.

-Chris

References
[1]
Just Detectable Distortion Levels
James Moire, F.I.E.E.
Wireless World, Feb. 1981, Pages 32-34 and 38
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
If you do a search there is a very lengthy thread about this already.
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
In other words, are there better tweeters with about the same sensitivity that I should consider?
My previous post was an answer to the question above which was asked by the OP. I was given a red chicklet for that post.

Unacceptable.
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
My previous post was an answer to the question above which was asked by the OP. I was given a red chicklet for that post.

Unacceptable.
im trying to figure ryans 2 red chicklets out?? As for yours, I dont get what you said wrong:confused:
 
Spkr_Bldr

Spkr_Bldr

Full Audioholic
im trying to figure ryans 2 red chicklets out?? As for yours, I dont get what you said wrong:confused:
Zumbo had to write and brag how he gave me one ... the prior ones, I guess some people consider Audioholics "their turf" and I'm stepping on it.

Me personally, I've never given a red chicklet to anybody on this forum ... or any forum for that matter.
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
Zumbo had to write and brag how he gave me one ... the prior ones, I guess some people consider Audioholics "their turf" and I'm stepping on it.

Me personally, I've never given a red chicklet to anybody on this forum ... or any forum for that matter.
Didn't brag. I put my name on your well deserved chicklet. It's not a turf thing. You were bashing a product that is regarded as one of the best. You, on the other hand, gave me one for recommending to the OP in this thread to check-out MB Quart titanium tweeters. I PM'd you to let you know I thought it was you who gave me the chicklet, and called you weak for not putting your name on it.

Your chicklet was unacceptable.

Your above reply claiming you have never given one is unacceptable.

Weak.
 

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