TV oulet/surge/what do you do??

[highfigh]

But even more ridiculous - how does that UPS stop what three miles of sky could not?

That three miles (more or less) of sky is just the dielectric for a gigantic natural capacitor. An effective lightning suppression system (bad name- it's just a preferred path) is an attempt at making the discharge occur at the place where it does less damage. Since the high tension wires are usually below the top of the towers, the tower would be the logical choice for "catching" the lightning strikes, so the power lines aren't the easy path to ground. Wooden poles offer no strike protection on their own but the voltage isn't as high, either. IIRC, wooden poles carry voltage in the 5KV range and the smaller towers around here carry 26,400VAC (I knew someone who climbed one and contacted a hot wire with his back when we were in our early teens). Telco lines are insulated, offering some protection and AFAIK, they don't have open splices, making their terminations in the box at the last mile.

While lightning goes just about any place it wants, it still takes the path of least resistance and if a commercially available device can divert the strike from the equipment in the building with a series of MOVs and other circuitry, even if it sacrifices itself, it's possible that the equipment will survive. The wiring ahead of the suppression device that's unprotected may not, but the manufacturers of power strips and conditioners that have pictures of lightning and a stated dollar amount for damaged equipment don't say anything about that and are probably banking on the fact that when a strike occurs, the A/V equipment is the least of the worries.

Bottom line- protect the building first, then add some for the electronics. A sustained or repeated strike will blow out the wiring pretty easily- with that much energy, a 15A 120VAC circuit doesn't stand a chance and for that matter, neither will a 200A service panel.

 

[highfigh]

Surge Voltage Rating "clamping voltage": 400V. Max Surge Current: 18kA. Joules: 720.


??

There's not much equipment that's made to operate on 120VAC that will survive 400V and by the time it clamps, the equipment will be toast unless it acts extremely quickly. Also, 720 joules isn't much energy. 1 joule = Watt/Second, which isn't a lot of energy. It's equivalent to 1 Ampere transferred for one second.

 

[Rickster71]

There's not much equipment that's made to operate on 120VAC that will survive 400V and by the time it clamps, the equipment will be toast unless it acts extremely quickly.

It's a Catch-22.
Too low of a clamping voltage and the MOV's burn out prematurely from over use, too high and it doesn't protect enough.
Approximately 330V seems to be a nice starting point. That always seemed high to me too.

 

[highfigh]

It's a Catch-22.
Too low of a clamping voltage and the MOV's burn out prematurely from over use, too high and it doesn't protect enough.
Approximately 330V seems to be a nice starting point. That always seemed high to me too.

A lot of Furman's crowbar at 180VAC. That's one of the reasons I like theirs. As a spike, that's high enough to damage some equipment and if it's constant, it's because the building's wiring or the nearest transformer has a problem, so it should be shut off anyway. It's not so bad with equipment that doesn't step up the voltage but I don't want higher line voltage going to my guitar amps. One is a '58 Bassman and if the power transformer launches on that one, its value drops significantly. The ratio on that one is about 4:1, so a line voltage of 180V comes out to 720VAC, which pops the filter caps, transformer, rectifier, output tubes and output transformer. I didn't buy it to act as a doorstop, so I'm putting a whole-house protector as soon as I can get one.

 

[seanYsean]

Boys, you all are talking way over my head. I'll just go with what the electrician says to use. I appreciate the input though

 

[ragged]

That unit is just a pretty useless surge protector with a ton of marketing hype.

I outlined what is required for best protection. For large investment systems it is worth every penny.

You have to look at the specs of a UPS carefully, they are not all created equal. If the unit does not have a battery then a regulator can only support voltage briefly. That is not adequate. Totally regenerative power conditioners can do the job, but these are expensive, highly energy inefficient and generate a lot of heat leading to unreliability. In my view a smart UPS like those from APC is the better bet.

Ok, you didn't read the website properly or at least you misunderstood. The Powerbridge is not a ups system, battery backup or any kind of surge protection. It's a well recommended product over at avsforum and would work perfectly fine for the OP to have a way of plugging his tv into whatever kind of surge protection he wants to use and NOT run an extension cord through the wall. For 60 bucks it's reasonable.

From powerbridge website;
If I install a regular outlet behind my TV, isn't that the same as having the PowerBridge?
No.
Having a regular A/C outlet/receptacle installed behind your expensive wall mounted HDTV, will provide A/C power. However, one of the primary benefits of installing PowerBridge In-Wall Power Solution, is the ability to connect an external Power Surge Protector | Power Conditioner | UPS device to provide a complete safe protected Power Solution to the HDTV, Home Theater equipment.

seanYsean, buy the powerbridge, buy a quality protector, panamax/furman,apc, and have your electrician install it. It's really simple. Better yet, I bet if you show him the powerbridge he could build one for you.

 

[highfigh]

Boys, you all are talking way over my head. I'll just go with what the electrician says to use. I appreciate the input though

The main point is that getting rid of the surge where the power lines enter the house is far better than allowing it to go through the houses' whole electrical system. The energy doesn't just go away- if you took physics, you learned that energy can't be created or destroyed but it can change from one form to another and any time it changes from one form to another, heat is the result of the energy loss. If there's no path for normal surges or lightning at the outside of the house, it has no choice but to go into the house and take whatever path it can, usually though people and things. Because it's already in the house, using the little ground wire that goes along with the hot and neutral to get rid of high voltage and current can't be as effective. If you have ever looked inside of a receiver or amplifier, you'll notice that the power cord goes to a fuse, then to a power switch, transformer and some filter capacitors. The reason it's filtered at the power supply is due to that location being more effective.

Not that all electricians are clueless about surge suppression but the most frequent comment about them is that residential electricians are at the bottom of the food chain. Talk to one who does industrial electrical work.

 

[highfigh]

Ok, you didn't read the website properly or at least you misunderstood. The Powerbridge is not a ups system, battery backup or any kind of surge protection. It's a well recommended product over at avsforum and would work perfectly fine for the OP to have a way of plugging his tv into whatever kind of surge protection he wants to use and NOT run an extension cord through the wall. For 60 bucks it's reasonable.

From powerbridge website;
If I install a regular outlet behind my TV, isn't that the same as having the PowerBridge?
No.
Having a regular A/C outlet/receptacle installed behind your expensive wall mounted HDTV, will provide A/C power. However, one of the primary benefits of installing PowerBridge In-Wall Power Solution, is the ability to connect an external Power Surge Protector | Power Conditioner | UPS device to provide a complete safe protected Power Solution to the HDTV, Home Theater equipment.

seanYsean, buy the powerbridge, buy a quality protector, panamax/furman,apc, and have your electrician install it. It's really simple. Better yet, I bet if you show him the powerbridge he could build one for you.

Technically, a Power Bridge is seen as an extension cord that meets code for in-wall use because it has a sealed box at each end and uses Romex. The thing that may not meet code is who installs it. Some municipalities don't allow ANYONE to do electrical work unless they're a licensed electrical contractor (like where I live) and it doesn't matter if someone can demonstrate proficiency. Others just want their permit fee. Some don't even care about that.

However, if you go to a big box store, you can get other parts that would make up a PowerBridge for a lot less money and it's still recessed for the power plugs.

 

[westom]

There's not much equipment that's made to operate on 120VAC that will survive 400V

Long before the IBM PC existed, the computer business equipment manufacturer's association required electrronics to withstand 600 volts transients without damage. That is old technology. Electronics must now withstand transients in excess of thousands of volts. New IEC standards even require it.

What did a typical 120 volt UPS output when in battery backup mode? A spike of up to 270 volts. 120 volt electronics have long been so robust as to make those spikes from a UPS irrelevant. That same output can be harmful to power strip protectors. But electronics must be more robust.

 

[westom]

Not that all electricians are clueless about surge suppression but the most frequent comment about them is that residential electricians are at the bottom of the food chain. Talk to one who does industrial electrical work.

An informed electrician understands completely different electrical concepts that ham radio operators learn. Electricians are taught principles based only in resistance. Surge protection is about the impedance of those same wires. As highfigh notes, electricians typically learn none of this.

Impedance is why defective earthing is too long (ie 'more than 10 feet'), sharp wire bends, ground wire inside metallic conduit, etc. A better trained electrician knows earth ground - not the protector - provides surge protection. Few do because only human safety codes are taught to all electricians. Code only defines how to install a protector to not threaten human life. Does not define how to install a protector for effective protection. Few understand the radio frequency electricity that is called a surge.

 

[westom]

seanYsean, buy the powerbridge, buy a quality protector, panamax/furman,apc, and have your electrician install it. It's really simple.

apc, panamax/furman are not quality protectors. Same protector circuit sells for $7 in a grocery store. Those are profit centers - not quality protectors.

If it is quality, then manufacturer spec numbers are posted that list protection from each type of surge. Neither manufacturer will provide those numbers. Why did you call them 'quality' and not post those numeric specs? Because 'quality' is only popular hearsay - myths promoted by those manufacturers - not based in technical facts and numbers.

Where is the always required short connection to earth from each 'quality' protector? Does not exist. No earth ground means no effective protection. That quality is exposed by missing manufacturer specs and no dedicated earth ground wire.

So again, where are your spec numbers always required when you make recommendations? Quality comes from manufaturers with much more responsible reputations such as Square D, Siemens, Intermatic, Leviton, Cutler-Hammer, Keison, and General Electric.

 

[westom]

Surge Voltage Rating "clamping voltage": 400V. Max Surge Current: 18kA. Joules: 720

So tell us what that number says. 400 volts means a 6,000 volt surge on the black (hot) wire is 5,600 volts on the white (neutral) and green (safety ground) wire. Now that surge has more wires to hunt for earth ground, 5000+ volts destructively, via adjacent appliances.

Where does that 18kA current go? Does it just disappear? That was not taught in elementary school science. If 18kA is incoming, then 18kA is also outgoing. Outgoing where? How does that 'magic' box make 18,000 amps just disappear? It doesn't. It does not claim any protection.

720 joules means only 240 joules and never more than 480 joules is used in protection. How do hundreds of joules absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules?

My point repeated. Using those specs, virtually no surge protection exists. Where are the specs that claim any protection? Do not exist (see two points in a paragraph two down that defines ineffective protectors.)

Consulting an electrician as an expert is questionable behavior. He is a technician. Electricians know what code requires - only for human safety. Electricians have little grasp of electrical concepts and virtually no knowledge of simple concepts that, for example, amateur (ham) radio operators learn. That additional knowledge required for surge protection.

It’s not difficultl. How to identify the ineffective protector. 1) It has no short connection to single point earth ground. 2) Manufacturer avoids all discussion about earth ground. Those two points make you more knowledgeable than many electricians.

Test your own electrician with simple questions to appreciate what he does know. Surge protection is always about where energy dissipates. Does he know that? Does he say where energy must dissipate if protection is effective? A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Does he understand why sharp wire bends, splices, and a connection longer than 10 feet means compromised protection?

None of this is difficult. It was even understood 100 years ago. But if you did not go into the basement to view same in your basement, then you were wasting time reading any of this. There is no replacement for eye labor.

Only difficult if you are trying to mate facts (reality) to popular myths that promote plug-in protectors. Those myths, if not disposed, will only create confusion. Anything your retail store or sales brochure said - forget it all to learn. See those spec numbers (first three paragraphs)? None claimed any protection.

This could not be easier: A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. It could not be easier. Either a protector connects short to earth ground - or it is a profit center.

 

[seanYsean]

Well my electrician is a friend of mine that mainly does new hotels, building spaces, etc. When I said I will see what he wants to do I should have mentioned I meant about a whole house surge protection.

 

[westom]

Well my electrician is a friend of mine that mainly does new hotels, building spaces, etc. When I said I will see what he wants to do I should have mentioned I meant about a whole house surge protection.

Don't forget to share. These discussions are bi-directional. Always educational is how much of this your friend knew. And anything additional he has learned from his experiences.

 

[seanYsean]

Don't forget to share. These discussions are bi-directional. Always educational is how much of this your friend knew. And anything additional he has learned from his experiences.

He is wiring it this Saturday, keep ya updated

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My insurance agent told me something interesting the other day.

One of his clients had electrical damages to his electronics due to lightening and the insurance company reimbursed him the full amount to replace all of his electronics for around $10,000!

 

[highfigh]

My insurance agent told me something interesting the other day.

One of his clients had electrical damages to his electronics due to lightening and the insurance company reimbursed him the full amount to replace all of his electronics for around $10,000!

Call him in six months and ask how much his premiums went up.

Some policies cover more, especially if the insured pays for it, whether they remember it, or not. If he has had more than one claim in a certain time, they add surcharges, too. This means that he should make sure everything is repaired in one shot because if he finds something else later, it's gonna cost him.