Turntable Suggestions

[PearlcorderS701]

Pearlcorder, I already specified THE best cartridge that can be had for any reasonable amount of money: Denon DL-110. $140 USD. In fact, you won't get much better if you spend $1000. It will work great on the stock Technics arm and on the upgraded arm if you ever go that route.

The Technics has a superior chassis, superior motor, superior everything, to any other tables under $1000, with the exception of the tone arm, which is by no means bad, it's just not a modern low resonance arm design. But you can easily change out the arm in the future to a great arm. It's not at all difficult. Just remove a few screws to take off the base of the Technics, remove the original tone arm base and disconnect wires. Attach new tone arm base, tone arm and re-connect the wires. But actually, you probably would be satisfied with the stock tone arm. Most people like it. Besides, unless you have really high quality speakers, chances are you won't even really benefit from a better tonearm. Most speakers are far more resonant than the tonearm at issue here. People often overlook this fact.

The clones are hardly clones. Only in appearance. They usually are plastic (not thick cast metal alloy like the Technics) and have inferior EVERYTHING on them.

-Chris

Thanks Chris.

I think I'll get a 1200, indeed...probably in black, to match the rest of the components.

So...for a finalized focus on getting this table...which site would have the absolute best price on this, and what is the absolutely most recommended cart/stylus for non-pro/scratching use for the 1200?

EDIT: I see you are stingently recommending the Denon cart; thank you. Where can I find this easily?

 

[WmAx]

Thanks Chris.

I think I'll get a 1200, indeed...probably in black, to match the rest of the components.

So...for a finalized focus on getting this table...which site would have the absolute best price on this, and what is the absolutely most recommended cart/stylus for non-pro/scratching use for the 1200?

EDIT: I see you are stingently recommending the Denon cart; thank you. Where can I find this easily?

Denon DL-110. I am not going to change that specification unless you want to spend $600-$800, and then, the 'improvement' will be barely anything over the 110's performance.

KAB USA is a Technics table specialist. They are a trustworthy site and have the black model in stock for $579 plus shipping.

http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/1200bld.htm

-Chris

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Denon DL-110. I am not going to change that specification unless you want to spend $600-$800, and then, the 'improvement' will be barely anything over the 110's performance.

KAB USA is a Technics table specialist. They are a trustworthy site and have the black model in stock for $579 plus shipping.

http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/1200bld.htm

-Chris

The KAB 1200s seem to be "custom" done by this company; is there any difference between these and stock 1200s?

 

[WmAx]

The KAB 1200s seem to be "custom" done by this company; is there any difference between these and stock 1200s?

No. But unlike most sellers, KAB inspect every table they sell very closely for imperfections before shipment. Also, KAB offers many 'modifications' if you so choose. I would not recommend any of them. The only modification I recommend, and that will make the biggest difference, is the upgraded arm in the future, if you choose any mod at all.

-Chris

 

[3db]

So you would agree that the SL-1200 is a better platform, ideal for an improved tonearm? The tonearm that comes on it is not that great, I agree. For the sake of longevity and less overal maintanance the SL-1200 is what fits the profile. The table works great with the stock tonearm and the user can upgrade it later if they want to or if budget allows.

My Project belt drive has been maintenance free now for 3 years. And its durability is not an issue because its been kept with the rest of my audio equipment.

If you're a DJ, by all means get the Technics. A great tone arm isn't required. But for home use, I'd rather spend my money on the tonearm because of the rest of it (speed accuracy and tank like build) is simply over kill. Those qualities are either inaudable or not required.

So it boils down.. paying for features that make no sonic contribution at all or paying for a better tonearm which makes a huge sonic contribution.

 

[Cristofori]

No. But unlike most sellers, KAB inspect every table they sell very closely for imperfections before shipment. Also, KAB offers many 'modifications' if you so choose. I would not recommend any of them. The only modification I recommend, and that will make the biggest difference, is the upgraded arm in the future, if you choose any mod at all.

-Chris

You really wouldn't recommend ANY of these mods? There are an awful bunch there. What about the 78rpm mod?

I've been wanting to get a Technics myself, but I'd really like to have 78rpm capability as well, and this mod is offered and looks quite professional from what I can see. Would you not recommend doing this?

I'd rather have one unit that can do it all, where I can easily swap different headshells with the cartridges needed (Mono-78rpm-Stereo) for obvious convenience and cost purposes. It would be much cheaper to get this mod than buy another TT for specialized 78rpm duty.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

I'd really like to get the SL-1200 gentlemen, but I didn't really want to spend that much on a TT; so much is being bought for this new house that I have to shell out for including a wall unit for the downstairs HT/living room, new speakers for the HT front soundstage, a new integrated amp for the 2-channel room, speakers for that room and a new turntable...this is probably just scratching the surface...

If I decide to take the plunge and get the Technics, is there ANY online retailer that will sell one pre-assembled with platter already in place and headshell/cart installed, ready to ship?

 

[WmAx]

You really wouldn't recommend ANY of these mods? There are an awful bunch there. What about the 78rpm mod?

I've been wanting to get a Technics myself, but I'd really like to have 78rpm capability as well, and this mod is offered and looks quite professional from what I can see. Would you not recommend doing this?

I'd rather have one unit that can do it all, where I can easily swap different headshells with the cartridges needed (Mono-78rpm-Stereo) for obvious convenience and cost purposes. It would be much cheaper to get this mod than buy another TT for specialized 78rpm duty.

The 78 RPM feature is probably the one thing worth getting added, if you have those types of records.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

I'd really like to get the SL-1200 gentlemen, but I didn't really want to spend that much on a TT; so much is being bought for this new house that I have to shell out for including a wall unit for the downstairs HT/living room, new speakers for the HT front soundstage, a new integrated amp for the 2-channel room, speakers for that room and a new turntable...this is probably just scratching the surface...

If I decide to take the plunge and get the Technics, is there ANY online retailer that will sell one pre-assembled with platter already in place and headshell/cart installed, ready to ship?

You can not have a platter installed for shipping; it would make the table hugely prone to damage. My god, 'installing' a platter is simply resting it down over the spindle.

Installing the cartridge is simple enough. The Denon cart even comes with a little overhang gauge to make installation super easy. I also recommend getting a Shure cartridge mass gauge so you can set the tracking mass perfectly. KAB would probably install the cartridge for you if you sent it to them. I don't think they carry the DL-110 Denon, and the Denon is the best cartridge anyhwere near it's budget, so I would not recommend any other cartridges until you get to a much higher price point, and I expect KAB would try to sell you on another cartridge since they sell them, but the don't carry anything in the league of the DL-110.

If the Technics SL-1200 is above your price now, you need to forget new. You will have to go used to get a great table under that price range.

-Chris

 

[Cristofori]

You can not have a platter installed for shipping; it would make the table hugely prone to damage. My god, 'installing' a platter is simply resting it down over the spindle.

Installing the cartridge is simple enough. The Denon cart even comes with a little overhang gauge to make installation super easy. I also recommend getting a Shure cartridge mass gauge so you can set the tracking mass perfectly. KAB would probably install the cartridge for you if you sent it to them. I don't think they carry the DL-110 Denon, and the Denon is the best cartridge anyhwere near it's budget, so I would not recommend any other cartridges until you get to a much higher price point, and I expect KAB would try to sell you on another cartridge since they sell them, but the don't carry anything in the league of the DL-110.

If the Technics SL-1200 is above your price now, you need to forget new. You will have to go used to get a great table under that price range.

-Chris

Just so your aware PearlcorderS701, it wasn't mentioned that the Denon DL-110 is a moving coil design (as is all their cartridges), which means the amp you intend to buy needs to have a MC phono input. The Onkyo and the other usual suspects most likely will not have this feature at the price you are looking to spend. Not that this matters, as it looks like you are not going to spend the money needed for a really good cartridge right now anyway.

One of the areas in the audio world where everything matters and where you won't get by cheap is with LP playback equipment. Maybe in this case you should take the "audio atheists" advice and get the cheapest Onkyo or (fill in the blank) amp you can, and put the bulk of your funds on the TT/cartridge and/or speakers. You can always upgrade the amp later. I think you will be more happier that way.

Or, (assuming that the bulk of your music isn't vinyl) you can just forget about TT's for now and wait until you can get the really good set up you want and need.

Or, you can always look for nice used equipment. You could probably get an excellent used amp/TT for much less the price of a new Onkyo/Technics set up. Then of course, there are possible issues with warranties/guarantees and being able to return something you don't really like or was damaged, which are legitimate concerns that few people on these forums seems to bother to mention.

 

[WmAx]

Just so your aware PearlcorderS701, it wasn't mentioned that the Denon DL-110 is a moving coil design (as is all their cartridges), which means the amp you intend to buy needs to have a MC phono input.

Incorrect. The DL-110 is a HIGH OUTPUT moving coil design. It can not be used with a MC phono input; it will over-drive/distort the input. The DL-110 must be used with standard MM(moving magnet) inputs.

-Chris

 

[Seth=L]

My Project belt drive has been maintenance free now for 3 years. And its durability is not an issue because its been kept with the rest of my audio equipment.

If you're a DJ, by all means get the Technics. A great tone arm isn't required. But for home use, I'd rather spend my money on the tonearm because of the rest of it (speed accuracy and tank like build) is simply over kill. Those qualities are either inaudable or not required.

So it boils down.. paying for features that make no sonic contribution at all or paying for a better tonearm which makes a huge sonic contribution.

For the last time, the Technics SL-1200 is not a DJ turntable by definition. It was designed first and foremost as a home audio turntable. It was adopted by DJs because it is overbuilt and will last years.

You are comparing a turntable with piece of wood covered in heavy laquer to an engineered base. The belt drive system on the Pro-ject is no match for the DD system on the SL-1200. If the OP want's something maintance free (and I gather they do especially as much as they have stressed they don't want to hassle with assembling anything) then a belt driven table is simply not for them. I don't care if you don't have to replace the belt for 5 years, it's highly possible you won't even notice the effects of the belt stretching and your music will be losing pitch over the course of a couple of years.

As you noted it's only shortcoming is the stock tonearm. I agree, it's not a great tonearm. It's good enough to surpass what the OP had before and get them on the right track. If they replace the tonearm it will easily best the Pro-ject and Rega tables.

OP,

As WmAx stated the platter just rests on the spindle. You don't even have to position it on some special way, you just set it on there. There is a large cylindrical magnet on the platter that lines it up with the coils exactly where it needs to go, absolutely no effort is required.

 

[3db]

For the last time, the Technics SL-1200 is not a DJ turntable by definition. It was designed first and foremost as a home audio turntable. It was adopted by DJs because it is overbuilt and will last years..

If you look at what I posted, I never said it was DJ table.


You are comparing a turntable with piece of wood covered in heavy laquer to an engineered base. The belt drive system on the Pro-ject is no match for the DD system on the SL-1200. If the OP want's something maintance free (and I gather they do especially as much as they have stressed they don't want to hassle with assembling anything) then a belt driven table is simply not for them. I don't care if you don't have to replace the belt for 5 years, it's highly possible you won't even notice the effects of the belt stretching and your music will be losing pitch over the course of a couple of years. ..[/QUOTE]

As I stated in my posts, I gave the nod to the Technics in these areas but I also siad it was over kill as it provide no audable advantage, something you and WMAX seem to overlook everytime this gets mentioned. Its overkill plain and simple and it doesn't need to be this robuts for home audio use.

As you noted it's only shortcoming is the stock tonearm. I agree, it's not a great tonearm. It's good enough to surpass what the OP had before and get them on the right track. If they replace the tonearm it will easily best the Pro-ject and Rega tables. /QUOTE]

This is why my ProJect sounds better than the Technics because of its superior tone arm. It tracks better and has an ultra low resonance tone arm.

 

[Cristofori]

Incorrect. The DL-110 is a HIGH OUTPUT moving coil design. It can not be used with a MC phono input; it will over-drive/distort the input. The DL-110 must be used with standard MM(moving magnet) inputs.

-Chris

OK, that's good to know, because I wanted to get one myself.

But it would have been helpful if Denon had made this more clear on their website.

 

[just-some-guy]

interesting thread. i have always been a TT guy. i would like to get one. but, it would be mostly as a work of art in my setup. so it would have to be a GOOD looking machine. and for the MINIMAL use it would get, i can't justify the cost as of yet. it would be a "last" component purchase.

how about these. (i don't want to jack this thread. just thinking out loud)

this one looks really cool. but if you look close, it looks kinda cheap. idk
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.hifi-museum.com/temp/misc/e/pl90-2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.hifi-museum.com/temp/Pioneer_PL-90_p.htm&usg=__1PFuZLOe2M9WhLg7yxOjpwl1oxU=&h=618&w=800&sz=148&hl=en&start=1&itbs=1&tbnid=nAaa2qJRdFLR3M:&tbnh=110&tbnw=143&prev=/images?q=pioneer+pl-90&hl=en&client=firefox-a&sa=G&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&gbv=2&tbs=isch:1
http://www.thevintageknob.org/PIONEER/PL90/PL90.html

this one it really cool also. i'm lovin the meter. and the build quality looks much better. idk
http://media.photobucket.com/image/PIONEER PLC 590 TURNTABLE/naac_tr/DSC07393.jpg

 

[highfigh]

OK, that's good to know, because I wanted to get one myself.

But it would have been helpful if Denon had made this more clear on their website.

It's on their website. The output voltages are clearly stated for all cartridge models. If you look at the output voltages, they range from .15mV for the top of the line to .4mV for the low output models and for the high output models (which is across the header for those models) 1.6mV.

http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/Accessories.asp

 

[WmAx]

interesting thread. i have always been a TT guy. i would like to get one. but, it would be mostly as a work of art in my setup. so it would have to be a GOOD looking machine. and for the MINIMAL use it would get, i can't justify the cost as of yet. it would be a "last" component purchase.

how about these. (i don't want to jack this thread. just thinking out loud)

this one looks really cool. but if you look close, it looks kinda cheap. idk
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.hifi-museum.com/temp/misc/e/pl90-2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.hifi-museum.com/temp/Pioneer_PL-90_p.htm&usg=__1PFuZLOe2M9WhLg7yxOjpwl1oxU=&h=618&w=800&sz=148&hl=en&start=1&itbs=1&tbnid=nAaa2qJRdFLR3M:&tbnh=110&tbnw=143&prev=/images?q=pioneer+pl-90&hl=en&client=firefox-a&sa=G&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&gbv=2&tbs=isch:1
http://www.thevintageknob.org/PIONEER/PL90/PL90.html

this one it really cool also. i'm lovin the meter. and the build quality looks much better. idk
http://media.photobucket.com/image/PIONEER PLC 590 TURNTABLE/naac_tr/DSC07393.jpg

There is one of the Pioneer PLC-590 tables on eBay right now with 2 hours left on it. It has a decent vintage SME tonearm on it. It is a very high grade table, though the arm is not up to modern performance levels. But on the bright side, that arm has a high resale value. You should easily get $300 at least just for the arm, and you can replace it with a superior Jelca SA250ST arm. The table itself, you would have to spend near $2000 to get a comparable performance table NEW. I expect it will go for $600 roughly on the auction, but be quick, only 2 hours left.

Forget the PL 90. That is an even higher performance table, and comes with a modern level performance arm as well. But it will go for $1000-$2000 easy, depending on condition. Plus it's exceedingly rare.

If you want a top notch performance table out of the box, used, look for Denon DP-59M. This table is both superbly designed and has superb performance. The tone arm is probably one of the highest performance arms possible. But the arm is also the weak point. It's an arm with accelerometers and position sensors and feedback transducer and servos embedded, connected to a computer system that actively cancels resonances in real time and makes other corrections. The problem is, there are no parts available to fix it or the computer, if anything goes wrong, making it a concern from that standpoint. But you can get an excellent condition one for $500-$700, depending on condition.
http://www.thevintageknob.org/DENON/DP59M/DP59M.html

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

I can't believe NO ONE here is going for that Pioneer eBay auction that ends in 11 minutes. Wow. That is an amazing deal. The table is of such quality you would have to spend probably $4000 or more to equal it with today's tables. The $2000 I stated earlier was my mistake, I was thinking this was another table; the PLC-590 is a first rate unit. Solid, heavy cast alloy chassis, top notch DD drive system, very low noise/rumble; very high mass platter, easily changeable arm mount plate. This is one incredible quality table. The arm on it may not be great, but it's worth $200-$300 by itself on eBay and you can use that fund a modern arm.

-Chris

 

[just-some-guy]

I can't believe NO ONE here is going for that Pioneer eBay auction that ends in 11 minutes. Wow. That is an amazing deal. The table is of such quality you would have to spend probably $4000 or more to equal it with today's tables. The $2000 I stated earlier was my mistake, I was thinking this was another table; the PLC-590 is a first rate unit. Solid, heavy cast alloy chassis, top notch DD drive system, very low noise/rumble; very high mass platter, easily changeable arm mount plate. This is one incredible quality table. The arm on it may not be great, but it's worth $200-$300 by itself on eBay and you can use that fund a modern arm.

-Chris

well, if you had said $4000, i would have bid. but you didn't, you said a measly $2000. so its YOUR FAULT !!! LOL, j/k. i'm not ready to buy. i have been kickin around the idea for years. just not high on my list right now. sides, i have seen those in the NICE wood like that denon, and they look a lot nicer. like i said, its going to be more a piece of art, than used gear.

btw. how much would a nice, sweet lookin, arm cost ?

 

[WmAx]

well, if you had said $4000, i would have bid. but you didn't, you said a measly $2000. so its YOUR FAULT !!! LOL, j/k. i'm not ready to buy. i have been kickin around the idea for years. just not high on my list right now. sides, i have seen those in the NICE wood like that denon, and they look a lot nicer. like i said, its going to be more a piece of art, than used gear.

btw. how much would a nice, sweet lookin, arm cost ?

??? I stated the price it would take to buy a modern table of somewhat comparable quality. It sold for $500 something! That's the point. For the price of an entry level table NEW, you could have purchased a very fine hi-fi table. It's a rare table, so don't expect that to come up again anytime soon.

The Jelco SA250ST is a good modern performance arm that costs $300. But it's not exactly very pretty. If you want a really 'pretty' modern performance arm (and you get higher performance as well), you have to spend at least $1000 for a new high end arm that has lots of precision machined parts, and a jewelry like fine detail to it's fit and finish. Here is a modern, very high performance arm that looks sort of nice IMO:

That arm is $1200 USD.

If you buy certain 80's Japanese tables, they have very fine quality and fine looking arms on them, as well as the great table, and you can get away with just a few hundred bucks for the whole package. Check out some of the high end Yamahas and Denons.

What about the Denon DP-59 I posted above? Is that not a very pretty table with attractive arm? It's all real wood veneer and all the parts are cast and machined metal alloy. Plus that particular table will give you extreme high performance.

-Chris