Trying to figure out how much I should spend on speakers

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DanH12

Junior Audioholic
Over the past few months I have been going back and forth trying to figure out what speakers to purchase and how much to spend on them. The more I keep thinking about it, the more research I do and the more money I want to spend. I went from wanting the budget Pioneer speakers designed by Andrew Jones to being ready to spend $600 on a pair of KEF bookshelf speakers. At some point I should have a cutoff and I need to figure out what that cutoff price should be. I want to build a 5.1 setup primarily to watch movies. I would say 80% movies, 10% music and 10% video games. Critical music listening is not something I care about and I don't listen to that much music anyway. However, I still want good, quality speakers for my setup that will last a long time. Is spending $600 per pair of speakers overkill for what I want to do? Could I still do very well for even $300-400 per pair? Would my money go farther buying speakers from an ID manufacturer? As of right now I have $1,000 to spend on a subwoofer and a pair of front left and right speakers. My room is 1,230 cu.ft. I am already set on buying the Hsu Stf-2 sub and the total price with extended warranty and shipping will be about $415 so my speaker budget is roughly $600.
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
I think what might help you is to come at this from a slightly different angle.

Start by identifying the restrictions and limitations imposed on your speaker system by your room. Figure out the type of speaker that will work best within those restrictions. Then try to find the best available speakers of that type that fit within your budget. Work "big to small" as it were. If you start with price as your first consideration, you can easily drive yourself nuts because there are so many choices!

The room itself is a full 50% of any sound system. You cannot overestimate how much the room itself dictates the rest of your system! Your room tells you where your seat needs to go. That gives you your seating distance, which determines your ideal screen size and how much output you need from your speakers. The dimensions of your room tell you how much output capability your subwoofer needs, and whether you'd be better served with speakers that have very wide dispersion, or speakers that have more controlled or narrow dispersion.

You will also have other furniture besides your seat to consider. Will your speakers be positioned out into the room, with a good 2-3 feet of air all around them for towers or speakers on stands. Will they be going on a TV stand. Or maybe they're going in an entertainment or shelf unit. Or maybe mounted on the wall!

Lots to consider. And it all comes before price. Like I say, figure out the type of speaker that you need first. Then worry about price ;)

So you've indicated that you have a very small room. What are the dimensions though? 11' x 14' x 8' ? 12' x 13' x 8' ?

Where will your seat be positioned? Where will the screen be positioned in relation to the seat? Where are you positioning the speakers?

Once we know all that, we can really narrow down your choices for you and make this much easier :)

I will say though, I very much like your choice of the HSU STF-2 subwoofer. It is more than capable for your room size. You'll never see me try to steer someone away from that excellent sub. :D

For the speakers, right away, I can suggest what are easily my favourite speakers for small rooms and just about any placement situation. Those would be the extremely versatile and extremely good Ascend Acoustics HTM-200SE . I can promise you, they ARE worth the money. The SE tweeter alone is worth the money. It is a WAY better tweeter than anything else you'll find at this price point. And that means superb detail, superb clarity, and superb realism without ever sounding harsh, "bright" or fatiguing. It's just a really obvious cut above when you compare it to anything else in the price range, or under, or even slightly over, for that matter!

More than that though, the HTM-200SE are better able to handle just about any placement than virtually any other speaker. They are sealed and have controlled dispersion due to how the drivers are arranged. So you can place them close to a side wall. You can place them close to the wall behind them. At just a bit over 6" from front to back, you can mount them on the wall if you like. You can put them in an entertainment or shelf unit. You can put them on speaker stands, or on a TV stand. It doesn't harm the sound from the HTM-200SE the way it does with most other speakers. The Pioneer speakers, for example. I love the heck out of the 2nd gen models, but they are larger, rear ported speakers that really need to have 2-3 feet of air all around them in order for them to sound the way they're supposed to. In a small room like yours, you're very likely to have some placement compromises. The HTM-200SE will simply handle those compromises better than pretty much any other speakers.

They're easy to drive with pretty much any AV Receiver. And they play low enough on their own to really blend perfectly with a good sub like the HSU STF-2. They're just a great match for just about anything you might want to do!

So a pair of HTM-200SE for the Front Left & Right, plus the HTM-200SE C centre will set you back $464 with shipping included. That leaves you $136 to get a pair of speakers for your surrounds, which is fine. The surround speakers do not need to be identical to your fronts. Their job is to create ambience, envelop the listeners, and play the occasional sound effect. So some small, inexpensive surrounds will be perfectly fine.

I like the little Emotiva XRM-4.1 pair as a pretty good sonic and appearance match for the three Ascend HTM-200SE across the front. At $179 shipped, the XRM-4.1 put us a wee bit over budget. But if the Ascend speakers didn't have their $38 shipping charge, it'd be just about perfect ;)

I'll say this though, the Ascend HTM-200SE Left, Centre & Right with the Emotiva XRM-4.1 surrounds and HSU STF-2 subwoofer is a HECK of a good compact speaker system! Like, really really good! That will put anyone theatre you've ever been to to shame! The clarity and accuracy will be really obvious. And you won't wonder for a second where the money went or why these speakers are worth it vs less expensive speakers. You'll hear it right away and you'll know it was money VERY well spent.

I'd be excited about that system. It's more than worth every penny.

I will also say, call all three of these companies: Ascend, Emotiva and HSU. You will find that all three of them have excellent customer service that will make you feel that much better about buying from them. More than that though, ask about any possible deals and ask about any possible "B-Stock" on these particular models. You might be able to save some money and make this package even more affordable. So it's definitely worth a few phone calls ;)

Best of luck! And I hope this will be helpful to you :)
 
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DanH12

Junior Audioholic
That was a very thoughtful and helpful response FirstReflection. Thank you, I appreciate that. My room dimensions are 10.5' (W) x 18' (L) x 6.5' (H). This is a rectangular room and will have my TV and speakers set up on the short end of the room as I don't have the room to view my TV the long way. My TV stand is against the short wall in the center of the wall. I also plan on buying bookshelf speakers and placing them on speaker stands to the side of the TV stand but out a few inches from the TV stand. I am not planning on buying rear speakers right now as I will use my JBL sat10 satellite speakers for the rears. I have those directly to the side of my seating position. One is on a desk right next to me and the other is on a hardcover book that is resting on a bed a few feet away. I will eventually upgrade the rears and get stands for them, placing them in the same locations. I also need to get a stand for the center speaker if I decide to purchase one right now. I sit about 6-7 ft from the TV.

I have heard many good things about ascend acoustics and would have no problem buying speakers from them. I would just have to test them out for that 30 day period to see if I like their sound. I like that the HTM-200SEs are flexible in terms of placement but what about the CBM-170SEs. They only cost $50 more per pair and have a larger woofer and are a little larger of a speaker. Right now my home theater room is my parents basement and in the next year I will be getting my own apartment so I don't know how big my home theater/living room will be in that scenario. If the CBM-170SEs are as flexible for placement as the 200SEs then I would rather get them. Do you think the Ascends could sound just as good as KEF or B & W speakers in the $600/pair price range. I heard KEF and B & W speakers in that price range at a local speaker shop and have never heard better sounding speakers before (Granted I am still new to all this so there are still many more speaker brands I have to audition). I don't think the Ascends are the best looking speaker and that is something to consider as well.
 
brianedm

brianedm

Audioholic General
That was a very thoughtful and helpful response FirstReflection. Thank you, I appreciate that. My room dimensions are 10.5' (W) x 18' (L) x 6.5' (H). This is a rectangular room and will have my TV and speakers set up on the short end of the room as I don't have the room to view my TV the long way. My TV stand is against the short wall in the center of the wall. I also plan on buying bookshelf speakers and placing them on speaker stands to the side of the TV stand but out a few inches from the TV stand. I am not planning on buying rear speakers right now as I will use my JBL sat10 satellite speakers for the rears. I have those directly to the side of my seating position. One is on a desk right next to me and the other is on a hardcover book that is resting on a bed a few feet away. I will eventually upgrade the rears and get stands for them, placing them in the same locations. I also need to get a stand for the center speaker if I decide to purchase one right now. I sit about 6-7 ft from the TV.

I have heard many good things about ascend acoustics and would have no problem buying speakers from them. I would just have to test them out for that 30 day period to see if I like their sound. I like that the HTM-200SEs are flexible in terms of placement but what about the CBM-170SEs. They only cost $50 more per pair and have a larger woofer and are a little larger of a speaker. Right now my home theater room is my parents basement and in the next year I will be getting my own apartment so I don't know how big my home theater/living room will be in that scenario. If the CBM-170SEs are as flexible for placement as the 200SEs then I would rather get them. Do you think the Ascends could sound just as good as KEF or B & W speakers in the $600/pair price range. I heard KEF and B & W speakers in that price range at a local speaker shop and have never heard better sounding speakers before (Granted I am still new to all this so there are still many more speaker brands I have to audition). I don't think the Ascends are the best looking speaker and that is something to consider as well.
If you're not a fan of the looks of the ascends try checking out Aperion Audio. Their speakers look nice and have received some excellent reviews. They also offer free shipping and a 30 day in home trial.
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
I like that the HTM-200SEs are flexible in terms of placement but what about the CBM-170SEs. They only cost $50 more per pair and have a larger woofer and are a little larger of a speaker. If the CBM-170SEs are as flexible for placement as the 200SEs then I would rather get them.
The CBM-170SE is rear ported, so it will need more breathing room than the sealed HTM-200, though it is worth noting that Ascend mentions the CBM can be wall mounted.

Regarding room size and the potential for moving to an apartment, I would still expect the HTM to perform quite well. I don't foresee any problems given the size of your current room. Obviously you don't know how large of an apartment you might have in the future, but having ticked off some neighbors in my youth, I'd venture to guess you'd probably not be pushing the volume terribly hard if you don't want complaints/eviction notices.

Do you think the Ascends could sound just as good as KEF or B & W speakers in the $600/pair price range.
Absolutely. Even the least expensive Ascend speakers by the cold hard measurements are fantastic, and there's no question they have plenty of die hard fans as well.
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
Even the least expensive Ascend speakers by the cold hard measurements are fantastic
Just as a quick addendum:

Here are some third party measurements of the CBM-170 (old tweeter)
SoundStage! Measurements - Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 Loudspeakers (3/2003)

versus Revel Ultima Studios
SoundStage! Measurements - Revel Ultima Studio Loudspeakers (7/2002)

I think looking at the basic frequency response and dispersion graphs, you'll get an idea of just how good these inexpensive little speakers are. Obviously the more expensive Revel has it all over the Ascend in terms of low end extension and distortion vs output, and probably a few other aspects not measured here as well. Nonetheless, in terms of the basic sound, I'd expect a lot more similarities between these two than say...

SoundStage! Measurements - Zu Cable Druid Loudspeakers (9/2002)
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
In your room right now, and for a future, unknown apartment, I actually like the HTM-200SE more than the larger CBM-170SE. Not because of the performance quality - the CBM-170SE are superb and can genuinely act as studio monitors - but because of the versatility of the HTM-200SE.

It's especially valuable when you don't know what your future apartment is going to be like. The HTM-200SE give you the freedom to setup them up in almost any room, in almost any placement, and they'll still sound good! Same cannot be said about most other speakers. The CBM-170SE, for example, really do need to be on stands, or on a mixing desk with some air around and behind them for them to sound the way they're supposed to. That should be ok right now in your setup, since you said you want to use speaker stands. But who knows in your future apartment? You might need to put your speakers a lot closer to a wall, or you might have bookshelves or an entertainment unit that you want to use. The HTM-200SE are just far less picky about placement. So that makes them a great choice for taking them just about anywhere :)

They are not slouches in terms of output, either. I would personally say they're good up to about 10 feet away. But I happen to like listening at full THX Reference Volume, which is VERY loud. At least a good 10dB louder than what most people prefer. Just from the pure specs, the HTM-200SE should be able to hit full Reference Volume peaks up to about 12 feet away. So for a future apartment, it's unlikely they'd have any troubles, just from a sheer output standpoint.

Having the controlled directivity will definitely help you in your current room. With that low ceiling and the side walls being only 10.5 feet apart, you're going to have some strong reflections, and the HTM-200SE will help counteract that.

So I like 'em, even though they happen to cost less :p As for a comparison to the $600 KEF or B&W, I completely agree that they compete very well. Like you say though, they are certainly very plain looking. Every penny of the design went into the sound, not the looks. That's for sure! :p In person though, they're not ugly. Just plain. They're black boxes that disappear into a dark room. If you want something that's actually pretty though, then yeah, these ain't it :p

I would definitely encourage you to try them out though. Even if you send them back, a single pair of HTM-200SE won't cost much in terms of shipping. It would certainly be a worthwhile audition.

The Aperion suggestion is also good - especially since they pay the shipping BOTH ways if you return them! Truly no risk to give the Aperion speakers a listen. And they do look nicer. So that's definitely a good option!
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
Just from the pure specs, the HTM-200SE should be able to hit full Reference Volume peaks up to about 12 feet away.
As I'm sure you're aware, that it can handle 400 watts peak without failure doesn't mean it's going to respond linearly to such a peak. A pair of 4 inch woofers in a sealed enclosure can only do so much. Still, in the current room, I'd imagine they'd get loud enough for most people's tastes with some room to spare, and as mentioned, I don't see max volume being an issue in an apartment.

But I happen to like listening at full THX Reference Volume, which is VERY loud. At least a good 10dB louder than what most people prefer.
For a frame of reference: -5dB from reference is about as high as I ever dare to push it (I have the limiter on my receiver set at that point). My wife doesn't care for much past -20 to -15dB from reference, depending on the flick.
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
As I'm sure you're aware, that it can handle 400 watts peak without failure doesn't mean it's going to respond linearly to such a peak. A pair of 4 inch woofers in a sealed enclosure can only do so much. Still, in the current room, I'd imagine they'd get loud enough for most people's tastes with some room to spare, and as mentioned, I don't see max volume being an issue in an apartment.
Absolutely! That's why I said, having listened to them, that I think they're solid up to about 10 feet away.

But yeah, point being, they're not slouches in terms of sheer output. They're more capable than one might think by just looking at them. Quality drivers and good design makes all the difference :)

I'm not wanting to misrepresent their capabilities. But we're in agreement here that output, especially considering it's highly unlikely that the OP will be listening at full Reference Volume in an apartment, is not a drawback for the HTM-200SE. They will do just fine on that front :)
 
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DanH12

Junior Audioholic
If I got the 200SEs for the fronts and rears, would the CMT-340SE center speaker work with these without overpowering them? Would it be better to use a 200SE for a center speaker?
 
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DanH12

Junior Audioholic
Are the Ascend speakers a better value than the Aperion speakers or are they basically comparable?
 
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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
That is a matter of personal preference, they will each have their own sound. You might also take a look at some of these kits from Parts-express, you do have to do the assembly, but it looks like a piece of cake, and the speakers look like they would have excellent performance. I think they could be comparable in sound quality and look as good as the Aperions and much better than the Ascends.

If you don't mind the look of a pro-audio speaker, check out these Behringer 2031p speakers, they have terrific sound quality, and they are less expensive than the other speakers you are considering. They also have great bass extension for bookshelf speakers, as they should with those large 8.75" woofers. The problem with those speakers is they are studio monitors and do not have a matching center, but they are waaay up there in bang-for-the-buck for sheer performance.

If you like speakers that are more comfortable at louder volume levels, check out these Hsu HB-1 speakers, you can blaze those and they will still stay clean and clear without being harsh. Despite their horn-loaded tweeters, they do have a mellow sound.

If you want great speakers and also have some money left over, check out these Infinity Primus p163 speakers, they have terrific sound quality, especially for the price ($86 shipped each!), and I do think they could hold their own in a comparison with any of these other speakers. Take the saved money and get a more powerful subwoofer. I had a STF2 and it was a terrific subwoofer, but then I upgraded to a VTF3, and there is no doubt that is in another league entirely, in both output and sound quality.
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
If I got the 200SEs for the fronts and rears, would the CMT-340SE center speaker work with these without overpowering them? Would it be better to use a 200SE for a center speaker?
Correctly set up, the 340SE will not overpower the 200SE, although I probably would opt to just have three 200SEs up front.
 
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DanH12

Junior Audioholic
I originally was set on getting the Hsu Vtf-3 but because my current home theater room is small (1,230 cu.ft in my parents basement) and because I will be living in apartments that will likely be small, I don't think I will be able to take advantage of the Vtf-3. The Stf-2 will likely be good enough for me without rattling the walls with those deep frequencies that the Vtf-3 can produce.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
TL;DR.

To answer the OP's question though:

"Your life earnings"

:eek: :D
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
6.5' ceiling? Is that a hung ceiling or drywall? I would think drywall that low is going to have alot of sound reflecting right above your head, and needs to be taken in to account.

You need to keep even simple DIY room correction of a couple hundred bucks in mind with your speaker budget!
 
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DanH12

Junior Audioholic
It is a hung ceiling. They are foam ceiling tiles. Above the ceiling tiles are florescent lights and insulation. What would I be spending money on for room correction? I could always do the room correction later when I have more money. Also, I will be moving out of my parents basement in 6 months to a year so it might make sense to room correct my next apartment instead.
 
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