GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Warlord
I have avoided commenting on this issue since Saturday's tariff announcement, because I'm only just now beginning to cool down. I believe I'm in a better place now, so here goes....

Modern international trade norms were established at the behest of the United States, beginning with General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT), which eventually evolved into the World Trade Organization (WTO). The goal was to reduce/eliminate barriers to international trade, such as tariffs and quotas. In 1988, Canada and the US signed a Free Trade Agreement in an effort to reduce trade barriers between the two countries. In 1994, this agreement was renegotiated to include Mexico, creating the NAFTA. It wasn't perfect and never completely resolved trade issues but was an improvement on what existed before.

During his last term, DJT insisted NAFTA was a disaster and demanded that the pact be renegotiated. After months of churn and very little in the way of change, USMCA was signed and he proclaimed victory, calling it the best trade deal in the history of the world. Now, barely six years later, he is unhappy again and wants to put tariffs on pretty much every import. And, he wants to start with his closest trading partners. He has offered various excuses for 25% tariffs on imports from Canada and Mexico, depending on the day.

Excuses/Justifications:
  • Illegal migrants and fentanyl smuggling. While certainly a serious issue, Canada is a relatively small source of illegal migrants. Regarding fentanyl, the amount coming from Canada is a rounding error compared with the amount coming from Mexico and China. And, it isn't a one-way street. There is illegal migration, as well as drug and GUN smuggling from the US into Canada. Regardless, these issues are completely unrelated to trade and could be addressed as such. A trade war would not do anything to help.


  • Insufficient defence spending by Canada. You won't hear me say that Canada spends enough on defence. That said, our government has committed to increasing defence spending to the recommended NATO minimum of 2% of GDP. Not quickly enough, but we're working on it. The claim that the US is paying the cost of defending Canada could be debated until the cows come home. Fact is, only the US has invoked Article 5 of the NATO treaty, after the September 11th attacks. When US air space was shut down, 240-odd flights were diverted to airports in Canada. Had we not taken the risk to accept them, tens of thousand of lives would have been lost - the majority being American - when these flights crashed in the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans, as well as in the Arctic. While our military is not large, we sent troops to Afghanistan anyway. Between 2001 and 2014, over 40,000 served in the campaign. We never asked to be re-paid for their service or the cost incurred. Yet, Trump insists that we have a debt to repay.
Regardless, attempting to negatively impact our economy would only impede our ability to invest in defence. How is that helpful?



As the straw men, red herrings, dis- and misinformation get refuted, other reasons for tariffs are proffered, seemingly at random.
What Does Trump Really Want From Canada and Mexico? - The New York Times
Mr. Trump has said he wants Canada and Mexico to stop the flow of migrants at the border and curtail shipments of fentanyl. But at least publicly, he has offered only vague benchmarks to gauge their cooperation. Asked on Monday whether there was anything Prime Minister Justin Trudeau of Canada could offer to avoid tariffs, Mr. Trump said, “I don’t know.”

“We have big deficits with Canada like we do with all countries,” Mr. Trump said from the Oval Office. “I’d like to see Canada become our 51st state.”
How does anyone negotiate around that? And no, a "Canschluss" is not in the cards.

It's clear that the US - or, the current POTUS administration, at least - wishes to throw current international trade norms out the window. He appears to believe that the US would benefit from turning back the clock to the revenue-generating policies of the Gilded Age, featuring import tariffs and no income tax. Of course, that period featured a few obscenely rich, many wealthy, many more getting by comfortably....and a whole lot of poverty. If that's what he wants and Americans support it....well, that's his/their choice. However, outside DJT's orbit, the general consensus is that such a change in policy will lead to financial disaster.

While 25% tariffs against Canada and Mexico will have severe consequences for our economies, it will have serious ramifications for the US, as well. Believing otherwise is just whistling in the dark.
 
Last edited:
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I have avoided commenting on this issue since Saturday's tariff announcement, because I'm only just now beginning to cool down. I believe I'm in a better place now, so here goes....

Modern international trade norms were established at the behest of the United States, beginning with General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT), which eventually evolved into the World Trade Organization (WTO). The goal was to reduce/eliminate barriers to international trade, such as tariffs and quotas. In 1988, Canada and the US signed a Free Trade Agreement in an effort to reduce trade barriers between the two countries. In 1994, this agreement was renegotiated to include Mexico, creating the NAFTA. It wasn't perfect and never completely resolved trade issues but was an improvement on what existed before.

During his last term, DJT insisted NAFTA was a disaster and demanded that the pact be renegotiated. After months of churn and very little in the way of change, USMCA was signed and he proclaimed victory, calling it the best trade deal in the history of the world. Now, barely six years later, he is unhappy again and wants to put tariffs on pretty much every import. And, he wants to start with his closest trading partners. He has offered various excuses for 25% tariffs on imports from Canada and Mexico, depending on the day.

Excuses/Justifications:
  • Illegal migrants and fentanyl smuggling. While certainly a serious issue, Canada is a relatively small source of illegal migrants. Regarding fentanyl, the amount coming from Canada is a rounding error compared with the amount coming from Mexico and China. And, it isn't a one-way street. There is illegal migration, as well as drug and GUN smuggling from the US into Canada. Regardless, these issues are completely unrelated to trade and could be addressed as such. A trade war would not do anything to help.


  • Insufficient defence spending by Canada. You won't hear me say that Canada spends enough on defence. That said, our government has committed to increasing defence spending to the recommended NATO minimum of 2% of GDP. Not quickly enough, but we're working on it. The claim that the US is paying the cost of defending Canada could be debated until the cows come home. Fact is, only the US has invoked Article 5 of the NATO treaty, after the September 11th attacks. When US air space was shut down, 240-odd flights were diverted to airports in Canada. Had we not taken the risk to accept them, tens of thousand of lives would have been lost - the majority being American - when these flights crashed in the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans, as well as in the Arctic. While our military is not large, we sent troops to Afghanistan anyway. Between 2001 and 2014, over 40,000 served in the campaign. We never asked to be re-paid for their service or the cost incurred. Yet, Trump insists that we have a debt to repay.
Regardless, attempting to negatively impact our economy would only impede our ability to invest in defence. How is that helpful?



As the straw men, red herrings, dis- and misinformation get refuted, other reasons for tariffs are proffered, seemingly at random.
What Does Trump Really Want From Canada and Mexico? - The New York Times

How does anyone negotiate around that? And no, a "Canschluss" is not in the cards.

It's clear that the US - or, the current POTUS administration, at least - wishes to throw current international trade norms out the window. He appears to believe that the US would benefit from turning back the clock to the revenue-generating policies of the Gilded Age, featuring import tariffs and no income tax. Of course, that period featured a few obscenely rich, many wealthy, many more getting by comfortably....and a whole lot of poverty. If that's what he wants and Americans support it....well, that's his/their choice. However, outside DJT's orbit, the general consensus is that such a change in policy will lead to financial disaster.

While 25% tariffs against Canada and Mexico will have severe consequences for our economies, it will have serious ramifications for the US, as well. Believing otherwise is just whistling in the dark.
Aside from Trudeau, I'm not sure what T-bag really has against Canada in any correct detail- as you posted, drugs and illegals may come through the Northern border, but it's a trickle that isn't large when compared to the high pressure on the South side of the Mexico/US border and until recently, the flow that was basically unchecked. Somehow, the last few years have seen a decrease in Fentanyl deaths, but we'll need to see what the recent wall construction and increase in stops of migrants shows. AFAIK, China has been the major source with Mexico being the conduit.

Trump likes to challenge people and if this is his way of playing Chicken, I think he might want to try being less bombastic and either/or in his thinking. OTOH, he's doing what he said he wanted to do.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
During the 1st Trump administration I was trying to decide between PVC shingles and cedar shingles for my lake house (it's not really a lake house, but "puny little shack that happens to be near water" doesn't really appeal to me).

I found a company here in the U.S. that makes very high quality prestained cedar shingles. These were finished here in the U.S. using lumber from Canada I was on the fence between PVC and cedar, but the price of the cedar shingles jumped up significantly during the time I was considering the 2 options. The cedar shingle company told me that the the price jumped due to the tariffs. They also said that the U.S. cedar that was available was not of sufficient quality so they had to keep buying from Canada.

It's possible that the cedar shingle company was not honest, and the tariffs may have been an excuse to raise prices, but that was certainly not my impression.

I decided to use PVC shingles in part due to the increase in cost of cedar. I was on the fence, but cost was a consideration and the increased cost of cedar pushed me to use PVC. I'm not sure where the PVC shingles are manufactured.

In this situation, it appears to me that the tariffs on Canadian lumber did not result in use of U.S. lumber or more U.S. jobs, just a price hike for U.S. consumers (and a potential reduction in sales for the U.S. cedar shingle company).

As far as I can tell, the PVC shingles and the cedar shingles are both good products, but cost is a factor.

This is just one anecdote, of course, but I'm willing to bet that tariffs are not the magic bullet they're made out to be.

And, personally, I kind of like our neighbors to the north and it seems to me we should negotiate mutually beneficial agreements in good faith.
 
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mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
During the 1st Trump administration I was trying to decide between PVC singles and cedar shingles for my lake house (it's not really a lake house, but "puny little shack that happens to be near water" doesn't really appeal to me).

I found a company here in the U.S. that makes very high quality prestained cedar shingles. These were finished here in the U.S. using lumbar from Canada I was on the fence between PVC and cedar, but the price of the cedar shingles jumped up significantly during the time I was considering the 2 options. The cedar shingle company told me that the the price jumped due to the tariffs. They also said that the U.S. cedar that was available was not of sufficient quality so they had to keep buying from Canada.

It's possible that the cedar shingle company was not honest, and the tariffs may have been an excuse to raise prices, but that was certainly not my impression.

I decided to use PVC shingles in part due to the increase in cost of cedar. I was on the fence, but cost was a consideration and the increased cost of cedar pushed me to use PVC. I'm not sure where the PVC shingles are manufactured.

In this situation, it appears to me that the tariffs on Candian lumbar did not result in use of U.S. lumbar or more U.S. jobs, just a price hike for U.S. consumers (and a potential reduction in sales for the U.S. cedar shingle company).

As far as I can tell, the PVC shingles and the cedar shingles are both good products, but cost is a factor.

This is just one anedcdote, of course, but I'm willing to bet that tariffs are not the magic bullet they're made out to be.

And, personally, I kind of like our neighbors to the north and it seems to me we should negotiate mutually benificial agreements in good faith.
That $800 minimum before tariffs kick in is also gone so any import is taxed from $0.01 up. :eek:
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
During the 1st Trump administration I was trying to decide between PVC shingles and cedar shingles for my lake house (it's not really a lake house, but "puny little shack that happens to be near water" doesn't really appeal to me).

I found a company here in the U.S. that makes very high quality prestained cedar shingles. These were finished here in the U.S. using lumber from Canada I was on the fence between PVC and cedar, but the price of the cedar shingles jumped up significantly during the time I was considering the 2 options. The cedar shingle company told me that the the price jumped due to the tariffs. They also said that the U.S. cedar that was available was not of sufficient quality so they had to keep buying from Canada.

It's possible that the cedar shingle company was not honest, and the tariffs may have been an excuse to raise prices, but that was certainly not my impression.

I decided to use PVC shingles in part due to the increase in cost of cedar. I was on the fence, but cost was a consideration and the increased cost of cedar pushed me to use PVC. I'm not sure where the PVC shingles are manufactured.

In this situation, it appears to me that the tariffs on Canadian lumber did not result in use of U.S. lumber or more U.S. jobs, just a price hike for U.S. consumers (and a potential reduction in sales for the U.S. cedar shingle company).

As far as I can tell, the PVC shingles and the cedar shingles are both good products, but cost is a factor.

This is just one anecdote, of course, but I'm willing to bet that tariffs are not the magic bullet they're made out to be.

And, personally, I kind of like our neighbors to the north and it seems to me we should negotiate mutually beneficial agreements in good faith.
I don't know that Canadian companies are engaged in unfair market practices/pricing, which are usually the reason tariffs are implemented but this time, it seems that Canada is being hit because of Trudeau.

If getting rid of Trudeau is the goal, Trump just needs to be patient because that particular problem has likely solved itself.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Many of the people who voted for him simply aren't smart enough to understand this is what he and project 2025 planned to do all along or the fact that it would negatively impact them. Trump himself doesn't seem to fully understand the impact it will have.
 
D

dolynick

Full Audioholic
Trump himself doesn't seem to fully understand the impact it will have.
Hard to say. I do generally think he's a moron but if the US Treasury is collecting the tariff levies, I can't help but also think that he (or likely someone planning for him) wanted it to bolster government revenue to be spent somewhere else or help balance the books after he makes some tax cut for his billionaire buddies/masters. The cynic in me thinks it's just another underhanded form of taxation on american consumers dressed up as "look at how I'm standing up for you". I suspect part of the reason he backed off was due to at least some of the general public being more aware of who was actually going to pay for it and getting the word out more than he expected.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Warlord
During the 1st Trump administration I was trying to decide between PVC shingles and cedar shingles for my lake house (it's not really a lake house, but "puny little shack that happens to be near water" doesn't really appeal to me).

I found a company here in the U.S. that makes very high quality prestained cedar shingles. These were finished here in the U.S. using lumber from Canada I was on the fence between PVC and cedar, but the price of the cedar shingles jumped up significantly during the time I was considering the 2 options. The cedar shingle company told me that the the price jumped due to the tariffs. They also said that the U.S. cedar that was available was not of sufficient quality so they had to keep buying from Canada.

It's possible that the cedar shingle company was not honest, and the tariffs may have been an excuse to raise prices, but that was certainly not my impression.

I decided to use PVC shingles in part due to the increase in cost of cedar. I was on the fence, but cost was a consideration and the increased cost of cedar pushed me to use PVC. I'm not sure where the PVC shingles are manufactured.

In this situation, it appears to me that the tariffs on Canadian lumber did not result in use of U.S. lumber or more U.S. jobs, just a price hike for U.S. consumers (and a potential reduction in sales for the U.S. cedar shingle company).

As far as I can tell, the PVC shingles and the cedar shingles are both good products, but cost is a factor.

This is just one anecdote, of course, but I'm willing to bet that tariffs are not the magic bullet they're made out to be.

And, personally, I kind of like our neighbors to the north and it seems to me we should negotiate mutually beneficial agreements in good faith.
WTO Rules U.S. "Inappropriately" Applied Countervailing Duties on Canadian Lumber | JLC Online

A World Trade Organization (WTO) ruling on the U.S.-Canada softwood lumber dispute found the United States inappropriately applied countervailing duties on Canadian softwood lumber. The WTO determined that duties put in place to help balance Canadian subsidies were in violation of global trading rules because the United States had not provided evidence that prices paid by Canadian firms for timber were artificially low.
While most American lumber is sourced from private woodlots, most Canadian lumber is harvested from crown land. Harvesters pay provincial governments "stumpage fees", which US producers claim to be artificially low. Canadian harvesters are required to replant at least one tree for each one cut down. Now, I'm no expert in these matters, but to my mind, since harvesters incur all the costs of forest stewardship and governments receive this revenue stream without having to invest anything themselves, I don't know how it can be claimed that the industry is subsidized.

The increase in the price of wooden shingles that you saw likely stemmed from new tariffs placed on imports from Canada.

The softwood lumber dispute dates back several decades and included a previous round of WTO cases lasting five years between 2001 and 2006. The previous round of WTO cases resulted in a settlement under which the U.S. suspended duties as long as lumber prices were sufficiently high. The agreement expired in 2015 and the Trump administration imposed tariffs up to 17.99% against what it called “unfair subsidies” for Canadian exporters of softwood lumber.
California builders say few alternatives to Canadian timber exist, amid tariff threat | CBC News
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Hard to say. I do generally think he's a moron but if the US Treasury is collecting the tariff levies, I can't help but also think that he (or likely someone planning for him) wanted it to bolster government revenue to be spent somewhere else or help balance the books after he makes some tax cut for his billionaire buddies/masters. The cynic in me thinks it's just another underhanded form of taxation on american consumers dressed up as "look at how I'm standing up for you". I suspect part of the reason he backed off was due to at least some of the general public being more aware of who was actually going to pay for it and getting the word out more than he expected.
He understands the part about generating revenue, but I think he/they figured that being a bully would somehow help create more favorable positions. I don't think they really anticipated other countries fighting back though, like most bullies think people won't stand up. They KNEW it would increase the cost of goods though, because that is exactly what happened last time.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I buy lumber from a lumber company that has existed for over 100 years and they compete very well with all of the big box stores because the materials they sell are far better. Chile has been one of the countries of origin marked on their lumber for many years- I can find out where they get various materials, but I haven't seen Canada as the main source. One US-based supplier was Plumb Creek, which owned 47 million acres of land- they merged with Weyerhauser.


Somehow, this will be figured out- if it isn't, heads need to roll.
 

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