Towers vs. Bookshelf and/or Sub

[Kruz]

After reading a couple of recommendation threads I've noticed a trend of people recommending bookshelf speakers to individuals using subs in their system. This has got me thinking as I always assumed tower speakers were the way to go if budget permitted.

What do you think? Does it make sense to use towers if your system will also include a sub? I've also read here that whether you will primarily listen to music or use the speakers for HT it always makes sense to add a sub. Does that mean towers never make sense?

Interested in everyone's thoughts.

 

[TheStalker]

Neither. And depends on the sub. If we're talking about JL, then maybe. But if we're talking about $500 ID subs with B&W 805 Diamond, or Dynaudio C1 Signature, then NO!

 

[ReUpRo]

Towers and bigger bookshelf speakers with multiple mids allow a 2.5 way and 3 way crossover config. This allows the designer more flexibility in keeping the drivers operating in the lowest distortion band. Also, generally tweeters are more sensitive than mids and woofers. So, having more mids can possibly counteract the need to suppress the tweeter level (another crossover design choice).

There is the aspect of driver arrangement. More real estate on the front baffle means more flexibility. For example, the MTM arrangement (D'Appolito config) allows the designer to tweak the crossover so that the speaker response produces null lobes aimed at the floor and ceiling. I see a lot more towers with MTM arrangement than bookshelf speakers.

To a lesser extent, there is the power handling aspect. More drivers means you can pump more watts into the speaker and go louder. This is an easy way to use cheaper drivers and still drive them hard while keeping distortion in check. That said, this is a gross generalization and not always the case.

 

[ImcLoud]

OK, so I played with this a lot, in stores and in my listening rooms.

I prefer the bass a decent sub makes vs a Tower with a 6.5" woofer for both movies and music. My 2.2 system with the csb1's and sb12's sounds better than any towers I have heard in the $1500 range {actually the bass is better than almost any tower I ever heard, and the mids and highs are on par with stuff 3 times the cost...}

So lets compare what I like-
I'll compare 3 price ranges...
$1000- Wharfedale Diamond 10.6's very detailed, nice tight bass, you can listen for ever, they sound natural...
vs. Diamond 10.2's and a single SVS SB1000, you will fill a larger room with sound and need less power for your mains.

$2000- Ascend Sierra towers, you get a lot for your money, I can speak to the performance of the sierras, they are very nice for $2K...
Vs. Dual sb1000's and a set of sierra 1's will save a couple hundred bucks and sound better, you will be able to tune the lows with placement and I prefer the sierra mids to the towers, the highs are about the same...

$3000- PSB Imagine T2's They are IMO the best value up to $10K, I like my jade 5's too in this price range, but I think if I had to do it over I would go with the PSB Imagine T's...
Vs. Dual SVS sb12's and that will leave almost $2000 for a pair of books, wow1's, philharmonitors, sierra 2's, ect and be $1000 under budget...

I built the 2.2 csb1 and sb12 system for under $2500 with stands, cables, mono blocks, and the parasound pre amp and I am confident you can not touch something for under $5000 that could touch it in SQ and output...

So now, there are 3 price ranges, and if you bought a pair of them towers for music you would be able to fill a good sized room with nice sounding music, all of them will give you your moneys worth, meaning you will never go somewhere and hear a different speaker for less money and say "I wish I bought them"...

bookshelfs just push your money away from the wood and shipping charges and into the drivers, design, ect... Less cabinet resonance, better mids and highs, easier to tune the lows in with dual subs, and a much stronger over all sound, you will fill a much larger room with bookshelfs and subs than with just towers... Plus it looks cool

As far as other members (or rather member) that think ID subs are trash, they are a little too bent on the stuff they can not afford and disagreeing with popular opinion to take seriously..

 

[ematthews]

I to have started to wonder if I would be better off with a set of good book shelf speakers and sub. Right now I am in a office/den that's size is 11x16 feet. I have a complete Emotiva set up running Polk LSi-15 towers and Martin Logan Grotto sub.. They system just doesn't sound great to me. It's good but not great. Am I over killing the room with to big a speaker? Are smaller speakers better for this size room????

 

[ImcLoud]

I to have started to wonder if I would be better off with a set of good book shelf speakers and sub. Right now I am in a office/den that's size is 11x16 feet. I have a complete Emotiva set up running Polk LSi-15 towers and Martin Logan Grotto sub.. They system just doesn't sound great to me. It's good but not great. Am I over killing the room with to big a speaker? Are smaller speakers better for this size room????

Are you crossing your towers, your sound problems are probably coming from the towers having built in subs, now you are reproducing the same sound fields with 2 different speakers... I wouldn't add a sub to lsi15 towers and definitely not in shuch a small room... Next issue is I don't like ML subs much, I listened to the grotto {thats the corner sub tire?} and wasnt impressed... Try taking it out of the picture all together, Im sure it will sound better... Another option is to start over but the lsi's are decent sounding towers...

 

[ematthews]

The Polk LSi-25 have the bulit in subs. The LSi15 have a non powered 8in driver which I have. If I listen to the system in full range without the sub the bass isn't enough. Almost to thin sounding. The mids and highs are exceptional on these towers... I have my system set up as a 2.1 on high pass using Emotiva's sub control on the preamp. USP-1. I have them set at 90 cut off. Don't get me wrong, it sounds good but I think for what I have it should should a lot better.

 

[ImcLoud]

the lsi15 8" driver is a sub, just not active, its a side firing sub though... you are correct the 25's is active...

Well you have a couple choices, add another sub {another ml}, or maybe for the same cost an sb1000 dual drive..

What exactly are you not happy with the setup..

 

[ematthews]

I guess you could say I am looking at getting a better sound without the sub. For instance.. My son has the HK3490 with Polk rt-8 speakers in his bedroom. With a little adjustment to the positive on his tone controls. {my system has none} the system sounds great and has a lot of good bass. My system which is way higher end lacks any low end with out the sub... So I guess my point is no low end.

Sorry to the OP about the high jack..

 

[ImcLoud]

Parasound 2100 preamp has bass control, its handy... and an inexpensive preamp...

 

[ematthews]

I was also looking at getting the new Emotiva preamp..XSP-1

 

[ImcLoud]

The XSP1 will allow you to boost the bass up to 3db in 1 db intervals... But thats a lot of money to spend if you are not going to need the XLR outputs and the sub control, just for bass boost is seems like a waste....

The parasound 2100 can be had for under $500 Parasound - Classic 2100 Stereo Preamp-Audio Advisor I have one and its a very nice unit, you can simply turn the dial to add level to the bass... There is a used one on audiogon for around $400 or best offer {if its still there} they tend to sell fast...

 

[ematthews]

Cool. Didn't know the Parasound had bass control too. Looks good.

I have thought about using my Marantz PM8004 integrated amp with my Emotiva XPA-2 amp to take advantage of the tone controls.

 

[walter duque]

Right now I am listening to a dual 15" isobaric subs Cinepro Mighty System Theater At A Glance & Ratings | Sound & Vision and my rear surrounds
ST-6K to some music and I have to say it sounds great. I am not in the sweet spot at this moment since I have a few things to do around here. The subs are in the front. But overall there are not too many towers that sound that good, at least to me. IMO with good bookshelfs and good subs you can't go wrong. The key is the subs. $500.00 ID subs are not gonna make it.

 

[ematthews]

Subs do make a big difference. I hear Rythmik closed subs are hard to beat for music only systems.

 

[ImcLoud]

Subs do make a big difference. I hear Rythmik closed subs are hard to beat for music only systems.

Rythmik makes some nice subs, {I'm not 100% sold on servo vs non, is the complexity and cost worth the gains, that i have yet to hear?}. For the cost I find the svs sb1000's are nice for a budget system $500 for one $950 for duals, then after that 1 ULS 15 $1000 and $2000 for duals... That covers the budgets from $500-$2000+, with Rythmic their sealed F12's and f15's cost from $900-$1300 each and I would take the uls15 over them so its kind of a moot point.. The svs sb12 and the 13 ultra fill in the rest of the budgets pretty well.... Someone needs to come out with a pair of sealed musical subs {12 or 13"} that run off of a single 2 channel amp that outperform the uls15 dual drive for around $1200, that would be a game changer for 2.2 music systems...

 

[cschang]

Rythmik makes some nice subs, {I'm not 100% sold on servo vs non, is the complexity and cost worth the gains, that i have yet to hear?}. For the cost I find the svs sb1000's are nice for a budget system $500 for one $950 for duals, then after that 1 ULS 15 $1000 and $2000 for duals... That covers the budgets from $500-$2000+, with Rythmic their sealed F12's and f15's cost from $900-$1300 each and I would take the uls15 over them so its kind of a moot point.. The svs sb12 and the 13 ultra fill in the rest of the budgets pretty well.... Someone needs to come out with a pair of sealed musical subs {12 or 13"} that run off of a single 2 channel amp that outperform the uls15 dual drive for around $1200, that would be a game changer for 2.2 music systems...

Why would you take a ULS-15 over a F15? I'd like to know why.

I have compared an ULS-15 and an F15 directly in my own room, level matched and EQ'd. The F15 certainly sounded better to me...as well as two others in the room with me.

An F15 is now $974 plus shipping.
An ULS-15 is now $999 plus shipping.

Why does a ULS-15 Dual Drive cost more($2049)than just purchasing two ULS-15's?

One thing is for sure, Dr. Hsu and Brian Ding are both excellent engineers. I had lunch with Dr. Hsu about a year or so ago, I am sure he has something cooking. These guys can never stop developing.

 

[ImcLoud]

We also recently compared the ULS15's and the f15, we had dual uls15's and a single f15 so only hooked in a single uls and a single f15. The ULS sounded better hands down, no comparison... It sounded like it had more output, easier to place, better build, and sounded better with music. I say it all the time the uls15 is about the most musical sub I have ever heard, I met Dr. HSU also {didn't have lunch lol, but spoke with him in a hotel room , and he is a very smart person, I don't know why that ULS15 is so musical, but it just sounds better than anything I ever heard, and the old thought process was smaller sub for music, he threw that out the window for sure.... Then when you use dual uls15's it gets even better... For music I am very picky and the sub either does it or doesn't, output isn't of huge importance since it doesn't take much to keep up with 6.5" mains, but you need that crystal clear, noiseless reproduction, bouncy, perfect bass... Not like with movies, that rumbly mechanical noisy reproduction will never get picked up on, while listening to a car exploding, but when listening to certain music you want it to sound like a drum is making that note, not a speaker and the uls does it better than any others I heard...

As far as the price, with the uls15 on sale its cheaper than the f15 if you need xlr's, but they are so close in price its not worth mentioning, what is $50 when spending a $1000, I just spent $148 filling up my truck with fuel that will last 3 days...

You want to compare subs and see which falls apart listen to godzilla {blue oyster cult} and this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHSYXt1iEpE , they aren't super low bass, but they have something that all subs don't do well, I also use some eminem tracks but that is easy bass for some reason the bass in bad bad thing sounds good on some subs and bad on others....

But thats the point we all like what we like, I hear what I hear so spend my money how I want and you do the same thing, that doesn't make you wrong, just makes you prefer shoddy bass vs clean and clear, jk the rythmik is a fine sub, just for my money I prefer the HSU... If I never heard the uls I would be happy with the f15 for sure, I just know that usl15 to be super musical and a powerhouse...

 

[billy p]

We also recently compared the ULS15's and the f15, we had dual uls15's and a single f15 so only hooked in a single uls and a single f15. The ULS sounded better hands down, no comparison... It sounded like it had more output, easier to place, better build, and sounded better with music. I say it all the time the uls15 is about the most musical sub I have ever heard, I met Dr. HSU also {didn't have lunch lol, but spoke with him in a hotel room , and he is a very smart person, I don't know why that ULS15 is so musical, but it just sounds better than anything I ever heard, and the old thought process was smaller sub for music, he threw that out the window for sure.... Then when you use dual uls15's it gets even better... For music I am very picky and the sub either does it or doesn't, output isn't of huge importance since it doesn't take much to keep up with 6.5" mains, but you need that crystal clear, noiseless reproduction, bouncy, perfect bass... Not like with movies, that rumbly mechanical noisy reproduction will never get picked up on, while listening to a car exploding, but when listening to certain music you want it to sound like a drum is making that note, not a speaker and the uls does it better than any others I heard...

As far as the price, with the uls15 on sale its cheaper than the f15 if you need xlr's, but they are so close in price its not worth mentioning, what is $50 when spending a $1000, I just spent $148 filling up my truck with fuel that will last 3 days...

You want to compare subs and see which falls apart listen to godzilla {blue oyster cult} and this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHSYXt1iEpE , they aren't super low bass, but they have something that all subs don't do well, I also use some eminem tracks but that is easy bass for some reason the bass in bad bad thing sounds good on some subs and bad on others....

But thats the point we all like what we like, I hear what I hear so spend my money how I want and you do the same thing, that doesn't make you wrong, just makes you prefer shoddy bass vs clean and clear, jk the rythmik is a fine sub, just for my money I prefer the HSU... If I never heard the uls I would be happy with the f15 for sure, I just know that usl15 to be super musical and a powerhouse...

Sure wish Santa would have dropped off a ULS15 for me to compare alongside the SB13U and XS30 I have on hand. One of the reason I decided on the XS30 was reading the accounts of another member who in fact had all three in home and in the end he returned the ULS15....because it was the less musical of the 3...he preferred it for movies not so much for music...you just never know!

 

[shadyJ]

I compared a Rythmik FV12 to a Hsu VTF3 mk3, I could not tell the difference on any musical material as hard as I tried, and I did try, level matched, instant A/B switching, EQ'd and non EQ'd, and using the sharpest recordings I could find. On some movie material, the Rythmik did differentiate itself, it was a bit more crisper in the mid and upper bass in complex bass passages like certain rumbling sounds, like the earthquake in War of the Worlds.