To Scam or not to Scam that is the Question.

[Tarub]

Tarub... Wow. That is something else again,...

Thaedium, buy this 57 acres property on ebay and nuke all the scammers in the world.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=190162956846&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:VRI

 

[Davemcc]

Should he pay for it, he will be getting exactly what he expected of it at the time he made the bid. Not what he expects of it now.

Isn't this the whole point?

 

[Halon451]

Harmonaudio on ebay

Does anyone know or have any experience with the Harmon Kardon (harmonaudio) seller from ebay? They seem to be the real thing and tons of positive feedback. Bold it would be indeed to advertise under the exact name of a legitimate (and respectable) company such as HK, but who knows...

Just wondering, because after reading post after post about these "White Van" scammers, I'm apt to not trust anything A/V related I find on ebay.

I don't usually shop online for stuff like this, but right now money's tight and I need desperately to upgrade my HT system. I want to purchase a few JBL speakers from this particular seller, which is the reason for my concern. I've auditioned the same speakers that they are advertising in Best Buy, so at least I know I will like them if they are what they claim.

Thanks in advance.

 

[highfihoney]

Just wondering, because after reading post after post about these "White Van" scammers, I'm apt to not trust anything A/V related I find on ebay.

Thanks in advance.

No reason to be scared of everything audio related on ebay due to white van scammers,just use some common sense when using ebay,why are you asking this question here,if it were me i'd be contacting the members in the sellers feedback profile & see what they say about him.

Many people tend to overthink every sellers honesty & to see a scam everywhere,even when the seller has proven his honesty,many times over with feedback for doing good deals.

I'll be blunt,if your looking for a 100% risk free transaction then buying from big box stores is your best bet but if you want to save alot of money use ebay & audiogon along with common sense & patience.

 

[Tomorrow]

Does anyone know or have any experience with the Harmon Kardon (harmonaudio) seller from ebay? They seem to be the real thing and tons of positive feedback. Bold it would be indeed to advertise under the exact name of a legitimate (and respectable) company such as HK, but who knows...

Just wondering, because after reading post after post about these "White Van" scammers, I'm apt to not trust anything A/V related I find on ebay.

I don't usually shop online for stuff like this, but right now money's tight and I need desperately to upgrade my HT system. I want to purchase a few JBL speakers from this particular seller, which is the reason for my concern. I've auditioned the same speakers that they are advertising in Best Buy, so at least I know I will like them if they are what they claim.

Thanks in advance.

HarmanAudio is legit and a great seller.

OP...ignore all this pallaver and do whatever you think is right...but know that those speakers are junk.

If you went into Wal-Mart and took a tv up to the checkout counter and said, "I want this" and it was rung up on the register...and then you said..."Oh, never mind" and give it back to them before paying...is there much difference? Regardless of what the ebay "rules" say about your bid being a binding contract...I doubt that has ever been tested in a court of law....except perhaps some huge deal...and then I still have my doubts about its legality in your case.

 

[Thaedium]

If you went into Wal-Mart and took a tv up to the checkout counter and said, "I want this" and it was rung up on the register...and then you said..."Oh, never mind" and give it back to them before paying...is there much difference? Regardless of what the ebay "rules" say about your bid being a binding contract...I doubt that has ever been tested in a court of law....except perhaps some huge deal...and then I still have my doubts about its legality in your case.

This is pretty much my point summed up better then I ever could have. Thank you Tomorrow for giving an analogy that is both adequate and descriptive of the reality of the situation. No morals or ethical qualms, just the reality. Sometimes people just have a change of heart.

To the OP, I'm sure whatever you've chosen to do was what you felt best.


Sean

 

[highfihoney]

Regardless of what the ebay "rules" say about your bid being a binding contract

You pegged that one.

I think the people who are saying he should pay up because its ebay's rules are equating this deal with a legit auction.

This isnt a case of simple buyers remorse, them junk speakers are part of a well organized & highly distributed,advertised on going con game that people are getting rich off of.

Its no accident that the seller worded his auction the way he did,he clearly knows they are junk but leaves out the fact that he is aware of their quality,in order for ebay rules to apply in any auction both parties must act in good faith.

In small claims court this would be an easy case to prove "the intent to decieve" on the sellers part.

 

[Johnd]

It seems that in today's world honor and one's word is lost...no?

Do not be led astray by Tarob's post. That matter is wholly different, although I can see a different judge in a different court ruling differently. On it's face $500 for two pictures of two cellphones seems ludicrous (although, technically, that is what the buyers bid on).

Also, why all this discussion about legitimacy? I see nothing illegitimate about the auction for the htib, or anything fraudulent in its' representation. Nothing. On these two points alone, I hope the seller does sue the op (if he continues to refuse to honor his obligation) as I see no way he could win in court.

To the op: Do as you wish with the wayward advice, but judgment day cometh, so prepare yourself for the consequences of your actions.

 

[highfihoney]

Guilt or negligance by omission,one can be held liable for their actions for failing to disclose any information they know to have bearing on the sale price,these rules apply to car & home sales.

To me this scam auction is no different than the guys who list gear on ebay,knowing full well its got a blown channel,instead of saying its damaged they list it as untested and at a hefty price to boot.

This seller knows its junk,he is just hoping to catch a fish

 

[Johnd]

Guilt or negligance by omission,one can be held liable for their actions for failing to disclose any information they know to have bearing on the sale price,these rules apply to car & home sales.

I know not what this means. Yes, one can be held culpable for intentionally witholding material facts...I still see no evidence of that in the instant case.

To me this scam auction is no different than the guys who list gear on ebay,knowing full well its got a blown channel,instead of saying its damaged they list it as untested and at a hefty price to boot.

I disagree. There is no evidence of any damage to this equipment, or of the seller misrepresenting his knowledge of any known defects.

This seller knows its junk,he is just hoping to catch a fish

I wholly agree. I guess that makes the op the "fish." As Dave wrote early on: caveat emptor (and the op is the buyer).

 

[Halon451]

Many people tend to overthink every sellers honesty & to see a scam everywhere,even when the seller has proven his honesty,many times over with feedback for doing good deals.

I appreciate the reply - I really had no reason to distrust harmanaudio based on the feeback that I read, but I figured I would toss it out into this forum to see if anyone here had any feedback.

Buying from the big retailers (BB, CC, or whomever) is a means of instant gratification on getting the item at the exact time of purchase. But their markups are often a little too high, which makes those prices on ebay look all that more attractive.

 

[Tomorrow]

The OP bid with four minutes left on the auction. A three minute internet search on the product before bidding could have rung enough alarm bells to save this two day discussion.

The auction rules are pretty clear. Bid if you want the item. Don't bid if you don't. The auction doesn't look like a scam, per se*, even if there's no inherent value. The OP should have figured that out before bidding instead of getting his eyes all glazed over at the prospect of getting something for pennies on the dollar.

Caveat Emptor.

*Nothwithstanding the fact that the product itself through its manufacturer and associated website may be considered a scam by some.

Dave...this is to Clint and Johnd, as well. While you all have a good moral and situational point let me suggest an analogy. Let's extend your logic just a bit.

Remember, we do not know the financial situation or the knowledge base of the OP, btw.

John R. "Ripoff" Roofrepair sees a bit of moss on an old home's roof. He knocks on the door and an 88 year-old woman appears. He tells her her roof is in danger of collapse from potential rot and decay, but he has come to the rescue. He and his crack team from Roofrepairer, Inc. will fix it for 10 grand, "half the usual price because of slow business during that time of year".

Here's your moral dilemma. Though this is a standard scam, this guy is substantially telling the truth (even though it will be 40 years before the roof collapses). The woman sees he is wearing an official Roofrepair sweatshirt and has a sign on his truck, she assumes he is legit. She has no computer to search and has grown trusting by force of her age. Her more knowledgeable husband recently passed away, so she has no one to turn to. And she is scared of the imminent cave-in of her room. She signs a contract for $10,000.

The guy takes his copper wash, cleans off the roof...and voila!...instant repair. "$10,000 please!" Is it caveat emptor? Can you take the moral high-ground with this "ignorant" woman and tell her to pay up?

 

[AverageJoe]

Sorry, I gotta :

To pay for the roof, little old lady finds big box of speakers in garage that her husband bought from White Van deal and lists it on ebay.

See knows nothing about it so she justs puts the information on the box (msrp, power, etc.) in the description and sells 'em.

Is she a scammer? Should she be paid?

Pretty far-fetched, I grant you.

 

[Tomorrow]

Sorry, I gotta :

To pay for the roof, little old lady finds big box of speakers in garage that her husband bought from White Van deal and lists it on ebay.

See knows nothing about it so she justs puts the information on the box (msrp, power, etc.) in the description and sells 'em.

Is she a scammer? Should she be paid?

Pretty far-fetched, I grant you.

I.....I.....uh..........I, uh............

LOL!

 

[highfihoney]

I know not what this means. Yes, one can be held culpable for intentionally witholding material facts...I still see no evidence of that in the instant case.


I disagree. There is no evidence of any damage to this equipment, or of the seller misrepresenting his knowledge of any known defects.


I wholly agree. I guess that makes the op the "fish." As Dave wrote early on: caveat emptor (and the op is the buyer).

John,the evidence is the sellers hi feedback rating,also take a look at his other auctions,past & present,you'll see that he does thouroughly research every item he sells to maximize profit.

This isnt a case of a seller just throwing things on ebay & hoping for the best,this guy knows how to research items he's selling & has proven his research abilities through past auctions,he also knows how to take appealing pictures in order to attract buyers.

This is not about misrepresenting an item,its about knowingly selling subgrade products at premium prices to unsuspecting new buyers,not illegal but no less unethical than the buyer walking away,this is the type of seller who gives people like Halon451 (above post) a bad taste in their mouth & scare them off from doing business with legit sellers like Harmonaudio.

 

[highfihoney]

Sorry, I gotta :

To pay for the roof, little old lady finds big box of speakers in garage that her husband bought from White Van deal and lists it on ebay.

See knows nothing about it so she justs puts the information on the box (msrp, power, etc.) in the description and sells 'em.

Is she a scammer? Should she be paid?

Pretty far-fetched, I grant you.

Yup, she should be paid because she did not know anything about the speakers, which is not the case with slick sammy the ebay scammer,now if she knew she was selling sub par electronics & covered up that fact she shouldnt get squat.

 

[AverageJoe]

Yup, she should be paid because she did not know anything about the speakers, which is not the case with slick sammy the ebay scammer,now if she knew she was selling sub par electronics & covered up that fact she shouldnt get squat.

But that's my point. We all assume it's a an intentional scam because of what's being listed. I haven't seen the auction, but in your post (#36) listing the ways the listing attempts to "deceive a new buyer":

1. Paypal only. I've done that on occasion so I can ship something faster without waiting for a check to clear.

2 & 4. Very high "Buy-it-now" price/MSRP of $4500. Well, it came off the box. We assume he knows it's inflated?

3. Specs listed from the manufacturer - No description "in his own words". Again, we assume he should know more about this stuff than the manufacturer.

5. Inflated shipping costs. That seems to be the case in most listings. Ebay's shipping calculator even includes the ability to add any amount you want for "handling charges".

I actually agree that the seller probably knew what he was selling. But, it's only my assumption along with everyone else. You can't fault them for quoting the manufacturer about the product (if they don't know differently).

Every one of these "deceptive" tactics are also common legitimate practices when selling on ebay. People quite often just don't know much about what they're selling (or buying). It's not a store where you expect the seller to know all about the poducts he's selling. That's why we occasionally get great deals, too.

The bottom line is as Tomorrow said - The OP should do what's right for him. Again, I think the seller knew - but the listing could just as easily been posted by the "little ol' lady"

 

[Johnd]

this is the type of seller who gives people like Halon451 (above post) a bad taste in their mouth & scare them off from doing business with legit sellers like Harmonaudio.

I understand...and agree. But I believe he should nonetheless pay. Do the research before you pull the trigger!

 

[Johnd]

Dave...this is to Clint and Johnd, as well. While you all have a good moral and situational point let me suggest an analogy. Let's extend your logic just a bit.

Remember, we do not know the financial situation or the knowledge base of the OP, btw.

John R. "Ripoff" Roofrepair sees a bit of moss on an old home's roof. He knocks on the door and an 88 year-old woman appears. He tells her her roof is in danger of collapse from potential rot and decay, but he has come to the rescue. He and his crack team from Roofrepairer, Inc. will fix it for 10 grand, "half the usual price because of slow business during that time of year".

Here's your moral dilemma. Though this is a standard scam, this guy is substantially telling the truth (even though it will be 40 years before the roof collapses). The woman sees he is wearing an official Roofrepair sweatshirt and has a sign on his truck, she assumes he is legit. She has no computer to search and has grown trusting by force of her age. Her more knowledgeable husband recently passed away, so she has no one to turn to. And she is scared of the imminent cave-in of her room. She signs a contract for $10,000.

The guy takes his copper wash, cleans off the roof...and voila!...instant repair. "$10,000 please!" Is it caveat emptor? Can you take the moral high-ground with this "ignorant" woman and tell her to pay up?

Not quite Tomorrow, though I like the analogy, amiss as it is (I would like to see that contractor convicted). Preying on an 88 year old widow is a far cry from the op who's conspicuously consuming the bargain of the century before doing his homework.

There are statutes protecting the 88 year old widow from predatory contractors. There are no statutes protecting the op from backing out of a bargain because he got cold feet.

 

[Johnd]

Every one of these "deceptive" tactics are also common legitimate practices when selling on ebay. People quite often just don't know much about what they're selling (or buying). It's not a store where you expect the seller to know all about the poducts he's selling.

Precisely.