Tiny room, should I bother with surround sound?

[farfromnoise]

My living room is 11.5' x 11.5' and it opens onto a small kitchen (7'x11.5') and the height of the room is less than 8'. There is a built in 8" deep shelf just behind the couch (beyond the 11.5') where a small satellite speaker could sit.

I bought a Sony KSD-55A3000 (55" rear projection Bravia) last year and I'm finally ready to get a decent sound system. I will be posting questions about front speakers and center channels soon too.
You can understand that I can't move the couch forward as my sitting distance is as close as possible for this size TV.

Would rear channel speakers on the 8" shelf behind the couch be unreasonable? I don't have room to setup side speakers due to the kitchen counter and the front door on either side of the couch. And if it matters, the back of the couch is about 5 inches above the shelf and the shelf expands about 2 feet to the left and right of the couch before it ends.

Thanks for any and all help/suggestions.
Roger (aka farfromnoise)

 

[jamie2112]

Hello Welcome to the forum. It sounds like you may want to start with a L,C,R setup and add a sub. Or the SVS system might be just what you need:http://www.svsound.com/products-sys-sbs_black.cfm

 

[jamie2112]

Do you listen to alot of music or mostly movies? And what is your budget?

 

[jostenmeat]

Photos please. Hard to picture mentally. You have 2 front doors?

I say forget surrounds for now. Just concentrate on the front three. If you can do that right, you probably won't even miss the surrounds. This coming from a 7.1 user.

If using surrounds, definitely place them at the outer edges of the shelf. There is no such thing as "Rears" without side surrounds. Therefore, the speakers placed there ARE playing side material. The fact that the shelf is below the couch back is also another huge reason to forgo surrounds.

As far as being too close to the TV, how far are you? Did you know to obtain the full benefit of 1080p, you need to be 6.5 ft away on a 50", or 7.75 ft away on a 60". (Not sure about the 55"). And that's all with 20/20 vision.

THX recommends you sit 6.1 ft away with a 16:9 55" TV. I'm sure they recommend even closer if wider AR's were being used . . .

 

[farfromnoise]

Thanks for the quick responses. Wow, great community.

jamie2112: This is intended for movie watching, but I would love to use it for music too. If had to estimate, 70% movie, 30% music.
As for budget...well I was trying to just get a sense of what I should be looking at. Ultimately, right now I'm looking to purchase a receiver and all the speakers (3.1 or 5.1). The receivers I'm looking at are around $800 and I guess ideally, I don't want to go over $2000 when everything is said and done. However, I'm a bigger fan of good quality and I'm always willing to stretch that price limit if it gets me something nice. For example, in doing research and looking at Aperion, the 3.1 system I spec'ed out was around $1500. Pushing me a bit over $2k.

jostenmeat: As for pictures, well, that would require me to clean up my living room instead of doing speaker research But I'll see if I can do that later tonight.
My viewing distance is about 8.5 ft but I would hate to move my couch any closer to the TV and cut off what little space I have in my living room already.

 

[Jeff R.]

That is a very health budget for a room that size. I would keep the Receiver costs to a minimum. Focus on the fronts/center and sub with the bulk of the budget, maybe $500 at most for the reciever if you keep shopping for deals you will find some great steals on recievers. I just bought an Onkyo Tx-SR805 in December for $385 directly from Onkyo as a refurb with full warranty. I love the reciever and it will do just about anything needed. I would then spend about $1000 to purchase the fronts and center channel. Then use your remaining $500 for a good sub. You can add rears later and they to not need to be of near the quality you put up front. I just bought a pair of Swan Diva 4.2's last week and should get them delivered Monday. I have not heard them yet, however all the reviews on the Swans are very good. I have never heard any negatives. You could pick up a pair of those and a matching center for right at $1000. I will be happy to give you my opinion of them when I get them in a few days.

Good luck and enjoy the fun of shopping around.

 

[fredk]

You would definately benefit from surround speakers in that room. In your situation I would look for the most diffuse surround you can find.

Axiom makes a very good quadpole design where placement is not as critical. I am sure there are others out there as well.

For that size room, look for a good bookshelf to use as mains.

 

[the grunt]

Hi Roger, it sounds like your in a similar size room to me right now mine is 10x12. I just moved into it temporarily from a 16x 12 room. I do agree with fredk that you will benefit with surrounds but I wouldn’t make them my top priority. I think you would be better off in the long run to concentrate on your front 3 speakers and a subwoofer first as suggested above.

I can vouch that your room size is perfect for using some good bookshelf speakers for your mains which when matched with a good subwoofer will give you great sound for your money. And as Jeff R said it would allow you to get a matching center if you can fit a bookshelf speaker above or below your TV. Although not required a matching center is considered ideal and a good bookshelf speaker will usually sound better than a horizontal center speaker.

I agree with fredk that if/when you get surrounds that multi-polar (di-pole, bi-pole, quadra-pole) surrounds would give you better dispersion that close to the wall.

A couple of other things you might consider. Looks like your room is a square which can cause issues with certain frequencies being reinforced and others cancelled. This could have an effect on your sound quality and may be something you want to address with room treatments before even getting surround speakers. I wouldn’t get to worried about it until you have your new speakers up and running. I Just thought I should mention it in case you get your new speakers set up and they just don’t sound as good as you expect as this could be part of the problem.

Now for one of my typical crazy bachelor ideas. I know you don’t want to be to close to the TV but as jostenmeat pointed out 6.1 feet is the THX recommended distance for 55” diagonal. So you might consider putting your couch on some of those furniture sliders so you can pull it out a little bit when you want to watch movies or listen to music and push it back out of the way when audio quality is less important. Not only would this help with the surround sound but will likely improve your stereo music by getting off the back wall a little, especially in a square room. I used them in my other room to move the seating back to keep things open when I wasn’t watching/listening and forward for when I was. Has to be the best 10$ I’ve spend on “audio” stuff.

Cheers,
Dean

 

[skizzerflake]

I have a HT room that's about 10 X14 with a low drop ceiling and I would definitely recommend surround, but suggest that you save money and stick to a 5 channel system. The advantage to a small room is that you don't need a huge system to get big sound. When I switch from stereo to surround while I watch a movie, the difference in realism is huge. I have a similar situation where my rear speakers are pretty close behind my sofa, but I take care of that with careful level adjustment.

 

[3db]

Actually, depending on how you can arrange the seating position, I would aim to get the 2 front channels nailed down first, followed by a sub, surrounds and then center channel. I may receive alot of flack with this but teh center channel (depending on your main left/right) is over rated. I was watching a film once that had little use of teh surrounds and I had forgotten to turn on the 5.1 running the movie thru stereo only. My mains imag so well that the dialogue was anchored to the set. The thing that gace it away eventually was a lack of deep bass.

 

[farfromnoise]

Wow, thanks again for all the responses.

Jeff R.: Thanks for giving me a reality check on the budget. I've already had to reconsider the cost. I have a small hobby called "riding a motorcycle" and I had to shift my priorities this weekend. So I'm definitely going to be forced to piecemeal this thing together.

fredk: thanks for the suggestion. I don't even know what that means but I'll be sure to look up those Axiom speakers.

the grunt: So why bookshelves over minitowers? Or even regular towers? I mean, I get that the room is small so volume isn't the issue, but I'm really worried about rich sound. I don't know very much about speakers but I bought these small Polk speakers (R15) for my Sonos setup (for music) and everyone pointed out to me that for such a small room, they would be fine. It's true that they are loud enough, but the sound seems to be missing stuff to me. I don't really know the proper way to describe it, but I remember my father having this very large speakers and they just sounded better. Can I get the same rich sound from bookshelf speakers as towers?
And thanks for the suggestion on the furniture sliders. I will definitely look into that.

skizzerflake: thanks for your input

3db: I might have to wait on the center channel due to finances anyways. Right now the center space below my TV is tiny, 4.875 inches. That means a new center requires a new TV stand which seems like a minimum of $500 (ugh).

 

[3db]

Wow, thanks again for all the responses.

Jeff R.: Thanks for giving me a reality check on the budget. I've already had to reconsider the cost. I have a small hobby called "riding a motorcycle" and I had to shift my priorities this weekend. So I'm definitely going to be forced to piecemeal this thing together.

fredk: thanks for the suggestion. I don't even know what that means but I'll be sure to look up those Axiom speakers.

the grunt: So why bookshelves over minitowers? Or even regular towers? I mean, I get that the room is small so volume isn't the issue, but I'm really worried about rich sound. I don't know very much about speakers but I bought these small Polk speakers (R15) for my Sonos setup (for music) and everyone pointed out to me that for such a small room, they would be fine. It's true that they are loud enough, but the sound seems to be missing stuff to me. I don't really know the proper way to describe it, but I remember my father having this very large speakers and they just sounded better. Can I get the same rich sound from bookshelf speakers as towers?
And thanks for the suggestion on the furniture sliders. I will definitely look into that.

skizzerflake: thanks for your input

3db: I might have to wait on the center channel due to finances anyways. Right now the center space below my TV is tiny, 4.875 inches. That means a new center requires a new TV stand which seems like a minimum of $500 (ugh).

Towers will provide a bigger/fuller sound than bookshelves. When I run my HT system in 2 channel mode for listening to vinyl and CDs, I use my towers as full range. However some people prefer bookshelves tied in with a sub woofer to get that full sound. It always boils down to what you can live with in teh short term to get where your going at the end.

 

[cl35m]

Wow, thanks again for all the responses.

Jeff R.: Thanks for giving me a reality check on the budget. I've already had to reconsider the cost. I have a small hobby called "riding a motorcycle" and I had to shift my priorities this weekend. So I'm definitely going to be forced to piecemeal this thing together.

fredk: thanks for the suggestion. I don't even know what that means but I'll be sure to look up those Axiom speakers.

the grunt: So why bookshelves over minitowers? Or even regular towers? I mean, I get that the room is small so volume isn't the issue, but I'm really worried about rich sound. I don't know very much about speakers but I bought these small Polk speakers (R15) for my Sonos setup (for music) and everyone pointed out to me that for such a small room, they would be fine. It's true that they are loud enough, but the sound seems to be missing stuff to me. I don't really know the proper way to describe it, but I remember my father having this very large speakers and they just sounded better. Can I get the same rich sound from bookshelf speakers as towers?
And thanks for the suggestion on the furniture sliders. I will definitely look into that.

skizzerflake: thanks for your input

3db: I might have to wait on the center channel due to finances anyways. Right now the center space below my TV is tiny, 4.875 inches. That means a new center requires a new TV stand which seems like a minimum of $500 (ugh).

You'll get 10 times better sound and quality from polk's vintage stuff. All their current stuff is low-fi made in china ____.

One of their best but smallest floorstanders is the SDA 2B. Make sure they have the stock sl2000 tweeters. The replacement tweets that polk sells are dull and lifeless and ruin the sound of the SDAs.

http://www.polksda.com/

 

[the grunt]

So why bookshelves over minitowers? Or even regular towers? I mean, I get that the room is small so volume isn't the issue, but I'm really worried about rich sound.

As I see it the advantages of bookshelf speakers are these:

Cost. - for a given price you can usually buy better sounding bookshelf speakers vs towers/minitowers.

Bass Response - it’s usually easier to get flatter bass response by using a separate subwoofer placed in the best location (assuming you have some freedom of placement). If you plan on getting a subwoofer you’re already paying for lower bass so why pay for it again with towers unless you plan on lots of 2 channel stereo w/o a sub.

Placement - often easier to place bookshelves in conjunction with furniture especially in small rooms. Even though with stands they may have about the same footprint as towers bookshelves are easier to place on furniture if necessary. If using a sub which is placed for best bass response the bookshelf’s can be placed for best imaging w/o as much concern for bass.

Matching center - usually easier to use an identical bookshelf center to your mains, but 4.875” is a tad short. As a side note have you considered doing something like what Dan did in this thread (scroll down for pictures):

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51150&highlight=center

The advantages I see in towers are:

Room size loudness - if you have a really big room and/or like things really loud then you might need towers to fill the room with the punch you’re looking for. (something to keep in mind if you plan to move to a large room later).

Punch - you may get more directional punch and or “fuller sound” from towers (something I like for movie explosions) especially if the bookshelves don’t go very low or your in a big room. But if you really want the punch then stereo subwoofers is the way to go.

2 Channel w/o subwoofer - if you’re a 2 channel w/o subwoofer person then full range towers are a must.

Towers look cool - face it towers look like what we expect speakers to look like.

The very first speakers I demoed were bookshelf speakers:

http://www.dedicatedaudio.com/inc/sdetail/13211

Heard them in an audio loft that was about 30x45x20 open to the similar size lower floor. W/o a subwoofer they filled the room with sound and had all the punch I would want for music (subwoofer needed for movies). See if you can find an audio shop to listen for yourself assuming they have both towers and bookshelf+sub setups in the same room.

Another option is to get yourself a 4.1 (if you skip the center for now) or 5.1 setup using bookshelf mains and if you move to a bigger room buy tower mains and move the bookshelves to the rear for 7.1.

3db makes a very good point here:

It always boils down to what you can live with in the short term to get where your going at the end.

I also agree with what he says here:

Actually, depending on how you can arrange the seating position, I would aim to get the 2 front channels nailed down first, followed by a sub, surrounds and then center channel.

Cheers,
Dean

 

[no. 5]

the grunt: So why bookshelves over minitowers? Or even regular towers? I mean, I get that the room is small so volume isn't the issue, but I'm really worried about rich sound. I don't know very much about speakers but I bought these small Polk speakers (R15) for my Sonos setup (for music) and everyone pointed out to me that for such a small room, they would be fine. It's true that they are loud enough, but the sound seems to be missing stuff to me. I don't really know the proper way to describe it, but I remember my father having this very large speakers and they just sounded better. Can I get the same rich sound from bookshelf speakers as towers?

Yes, you can. Although a subwoofer is necessary for "full range" operation.

As for your experience with the Polk R15's; don't think that they represent a good example of what a bookshelf can do. I also own a pair, I can assure you that most of their sound quality issues are unrelated to their size.

 

[lsiberian]

I just bought an Onkyo Tx-SR805 in December for $385 directly from Onkyo as a refurb with full warranty. I love the reciever and it will do just about anything needed.

Damn that's how much I paid for my 705. hehe Oh well.

 

[Jeff R.]

I would go with towers. Everyone says book shelves are cheaper, however once you get yourself a good set of stands you could have just bought the tower speaker for the extra money. I personally want my money going into the speakers and cabinets, not a pair of stands that may or may not convey to your next pruchase. Not to mention, I assume you hope to move up to larger room later. If you have the towers you will be ready to go.

 

[lsiberian]

I don't know about towers in a small room. I would be concerned that they might over power the room. I am also concerned that the extra weight may be an issue if he live on the 3rd floor and has to go up stairs. Towers big and will be more difficult to move and or transport. A pair of Sanus Basic Foundations costs about 50 bucks. So unless the Tower is only 50 bucks more for the pair then it really isn't a big cost savings. Plus in the wrong apartment room towers can sound boomy if they are too powerful. I think Towers would be really cool to have and would gladly swap my Beta 20s for Beta 50s, but I think for most folks a decent pair of bookshelves is more than adequate and if you have a lady it might be easier to get away with.

Of course my Kef's can over power my room lol and they are tiny so I guess size doesn't always influence that.