Time to update to 2 channel stereo

[TLS Guy]

OK, understood, but given the 'exceptions' that there are, I have seen and heard some very nice ones. Granted they aren't cheap but when space saving priorities exist they have proved to be a nice option for a simplistic 2 channel kit.

That all depends which space. As Peter always pointed out, power amps can always be tucked away out of site, and I generally have done that.

 

[3db]

The market departments of the audiophile brands had 50 some years of lavishing snake oil out on the consumers. That does have an effect on how people think unfortunately. I understand that the OP doesnt like surround sound. Lots of people dont and thats ok. What I dont understand is why the OP doesnt use the Marantz as his integrated or pre/power amp combo. Why put out money for a dedicated 2 channel amplification when one can guarentee no sonic advantages over an AVR?

 

[Mikado463]

That all depends which space. As Peter always pointed out, power amps can always be tucked away out of site, and I generally have done that.

I wonder if Peter ever spoke with Nelson ??

 

[TLS Guy]

The market departments of the audiophile brands had 50 some years of lavishing snake oil out on the consumers. That does have an effect on how people think unfortunately. I understand that the OP doesnt like surround sound. Lots of people dont and thats ok. What I dont understand is why the OP doesnt use the Marantz as his integrated or pre/power amp combo. Why put out money for a dedicated 2 channel amplification when one can guarentee no sonic advantages over an AVR?

I am not so sure about that anymore. I think those AVRs and actually the lower end AVPs are not as good as I thought. My AV10 has been a true revelation.

 

[m. zillch]

My AV10 has been a true revelation.

Do you use it in Pure Direct mode?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The heart wants what the heart wants.

Some people think AVR sound just as good.

Some people think separates sound better.

TLS Guy thinks his Marantz AV10 sounds better than all of the above.

But there's no point arguing what the OP wants. The heart wants what the heart wants.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Since I'm just coming back to the hobby, I'm not sure what brands are considered audiophile or near-audiophile quality.

After seeing what others have said, have you come any closer to making your decision?

 

[flyboylr45]

The market departments of the audiophile brands had 50 some years of lavishing snake oil out on the consumers. That does have an effect on how people think unfortunately. I understand that the OP doesnt like surround sound. Lots of people dont and thats ok. What I dont understand is why the OP doesnt use the Marantz as his integrated or pre/power amp combo. Why put out money for a dedicated 2 channel amplification when one can guarentee no sonic advantages over an AVR?

While I somewhat agree, not everything has to be practical. After all, this is a hobby. I have a Denon X8500h and wanted separates. Will they sound better? Who knows. But it’s my hobby and what I wanted. Nothing I have in this hobby is practical but it gives me joy every time I use it. Sometimes we just want something new and that’s ok. If I was the OP though, I would spend most of the money on new speakers…

 

[lovinthehd]

While I somewhat agree, not everything has to be practical. After all, this is a hobby. I have a Denon X8500h and wanted separates. Will they sound better? Who knows. But it’s my hobby and what I wanted. Nothing I have in this hobby is practical but it gives me joy every time I use it. Sometimes we just want something new and that’s ok. If I was the OP though, I would spend most of the money on new speakers…

Hobby doesn't necessarily entail buying various electronics just to consume otoh. That would just be consumerism.

 

[m. zillch]

Personally I avoid separates when possible, even if they cost the same, because the multiple power cords, and even worse sometimes the need for multiple room AC branches from different circuit breakers, escalates the possibility of introducing ground loops. Ground loops can initially confound even some well-known EEs in their Reference rooms! Also the improvement (generally) of lower noise floors per device, at least in theory, often gets thrown out the window if every device in the chain doesn't have a variable input sensitivity and output level controls so one can optimize the overall system's gain structure from device to device.

A common similar problem is people who buy outboard DACs—because they're in vogue these days—and then muck up the performance of their existing AVR or prepro because they suddenly have to engage its mediocre ADC to re-digitize the incoming analog signal from the new outboard DAC (say because they rely on room correction and bass management, which nearly always needs to be done in the digital domain) whereas when they previously used their device connected digitally that noisy extra conversion step was bypassed.

 

[TLS Guy]

Personally I avoid separates when possible, even if they cost the same, because the multiple power cords escalates the possibility of ground loops. Also the improvement (generally) of lower noise floors per device, at least in theory, often gets thrown out the window if every device in the chain doesn't have a variable input and output level controls so I can optimize the gain structure from device to device.

A common similar problem is people who buy outboard DACs—because they're in vogue these days—and then muck up the performance of their existing AVR or prepro because they suddenly have to engage its mediocre ADC (say because they rely on room correction and bass management, nearlly always done digitally) whereas when they previously used their optical disc player connected digitally that noisy step was bypassed.

Hum should not be an issue if you construct your ground plane properly. You have somewhat of a point about DACs, but not about physically separating high gain voltage amplifying circuits from the power circuits. That is best practice. For one thing all those power amps in receivers are basically starved of power as you can tell from the spec. sheets. Anyhow, that is not an issue for me as my AV room runs on 18 power amp channels.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Hobby doesn't necessarily entail buying various electronics just to consume otoh. That would just be consumerism.

The point isn’t to consume or spend a certain amount of money.

Why do most people do most things in life in general? It’s to make them FEEL GOOD.

Everyone is different.

For some people, being “rational” or cost-effective or spending “smart” makes them feel good. Some people don’t care as much about that.

The point of doing most things in life is to feel good about it.

 

[highfigh]

The point of doing most things in life is to feel good about it.

I heard someone say "I beat my head against the wall because it feels so good when I stop".

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I heard someone say "I beat my head against the wall because it feels so good when I stop".

Okay, unless it’s harmful or detrimental, if it makes you happy, it can’t be that bad.

If buying something makes it harmful to a person financially or physically or emotionally or spiritually, don’t do it, for crying out loud.

Thinking about having a couple of these in my audio rack makes me feel pretty good. Not harmful to me in any way. In fact, looking at them lowers my blood pressure and lifts my mood, which are beneficial to me.

 

[TLS Guy]

Okay, unless it’s harmful or detrimental, if it makes you happy, it can’t be that bad.

If buying something makes it harmful to a person financially or physically or emotionally or spiritually, don’t do it, for crying out loud.

Thinking about having a couple of these in my audio rack makes me feel pretty good. Not harmful to me in any way. In fact, looking at them lowers my blood pressure and lifts my mood, which are beneficial to me.

i think the toughest thing about audio purchases is if it will be reliable. Unfortunately that is very difficult to assess, especially with such frequent model changes.
So, in fact good older gear can be very good purchases if suitable for the intended purchase. Time is really the only arbiter if anything is really any good.

There is far too much gear around these days that really is not any good and you have to be careful. But you will get burned no matter how much care you take.

The most expensive purchases are units that fail prematurely.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

i think the toughest thing about audio purchases is if it will be reliable. Unfortunately that is very difficult to assess, especially with such frequent model changes.
So, in fact good older gear can be very good purchases if suitable for the intended purchase. Time is really the only arbiter if anything is really any good.

There is far too much gear around these days that really is not any good and you have to be careful. But you will get burned no matter how much care you take.

The most expensive purchases are units that fail prematurely.

Reliability is the salient factor to me for everything in life.

When a 60+ Year-established company offers you 20 years warranty, it’s a safe bet that it’s reliable.

But analog amps and analog speakers are significantly more reliable than AVR/AVP. So here is the more difficult part. I don’t think the more expensive units tend to be more unreliable.

Even with AVR/AVP, I think warranty is a good factor to keep in mind. Sony ES, Yamaha Avantage, and Marantz offer 5YR warranty. Denon should have offered the same 5YR warranty for at least those units made in Japan (x4800, x6800, A10, A1). Too bad they don’t.

Another factor to keep in mind is the size (asset/money) of the company. The bigger the company, the more money they have for manpower, research-development, and customer support. Yamaha and Sony are huge. Now that Samsung will own Sound United, SU may be just as big since Samsung is among the biggest companies in the world.

That’s my take.

 

[3db]

While I somewhat agree, not everything has to be practical. After all, this is a hobby. I have a Denon X8500h and wanted separates. Will they sound better? Who knows. But it’s my hobby and what I wanted. Nothing I have in this hobby is practical but it gives me joy every time I use it. Sometimes we just want something new and that’s ok. If I was the OP though, I would spend most of the money on new speakers…

I agree with what you are saying here and I'm not saying the OP should not look at separates. I'm saying the OP should not look at separates if he's expecting to get better sound quality over his AVR .... unless the AVR is being tapped out of its power reserves and more power is required.

I'll show you my agreement with the same shared sentiments

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm saying the OP should not look at separates if he's expecting to get better sound quality over his AVR .... unless the AVR is being tapped out of its power reserves and more power is required.

I personally agree with you on the SQ part.

But this goes into the age-old question of "do all amps and preamps have a sound signature of their own"? We may not believe it. We may cite DB-studies to justify our beliefs. But not everyone agrees with us.

Just look at the amount of posts @TLS Guy have posted on how his AV10 sound much better than the AV7706 - and both are separates AVPs.

Don't even think about TLS Guy buying an AVR.

 

[m. zillch]

All I care about is the actual sound (not the imagined sound nor the reviewers/internet's "buzz" about the sound) and features. I'll pay for increased reliability but only if it seems to me to be cost effective. For example, if one unit costs 3X the price of another, or more, but is expected to last only twice as long then it's not worth it to me. Sure, there is a slight added nuisance in having to buy a new unit every, say, 5 years instead of every 10 years, but this also means at that 5 year mark I'll be given the opportunity to consider the new features, new formats, and performance improvements which have been introduced since when I bought the first unit.

 

[3db]

I personally agree with you on the SQ part.

But this goes into the age-old question of "do all amps and preamps have a sound signature of their own"? We may not believe it. We may cite DB-studies to justify our beliefs. But not everyone agrees with us.

Just look at the amount of posts @TLS Guy have posted on how his AV10 sound much better than the AV7706 - and both are separates AVPs.

Don't even think about TLS Guy buying an AVR.

Those who maintain that SS amps sound different while operating well with in their power delivery band obviously ignore the values of DB-studies. I take these as "opinions" only as they are fraught with error due to unconscious subjective bias.