Time to build a good system

[ivseenbetter]

I'm pretty new to the forum here (as a poster, I have been a reader when I can get a chance for awhile now) but I really enjoy reading all the reviews and tips from everybody here. I bought my first (and so far only) "theater" syestem back in 96. I didn't research anything at all when I did it. I just went to the store and bought something pretty. It was a 32" Sony and a Sony rack system with 5 speakers. I thought I was in heaven. Well, it is ten years later and I have upgraded my TV a few times already but not my stereo. Now I want to do it right this time and get something that will truly be a great system but to be honest, as much as I try to read about this stuff a lot of it feels like it is over my head. I have talked to the wife and she is going to let me have a free hand to get what I like (within reason considering $$ isn't in endless supply). The key is that she will not let me buy anything until the end of the year (unless it is a once in a lifetime deal) so I have 4 - 6 months to get smart and to know what I want to purchase and to know about how much I am going to spend. This is where I am hoping you guys here can help me!?

As of right now I have a RPTV 65" Toshiba 65H83. I enjoy it but I am thinking of buying one of the new DLP's instead. That is beside the point and off subject though. What I want to know is Theater Audio information.

Some info:
-I don't like satellite or bookshelf systems. I want towers in front.
-I listen to 75% TV/Movies and 25% Music (mixture of 80's rock/pop/R&B)
-There is no wall between my living room and dining area and it opens into my kitchen. The area opens up on the side to the kitchen so the whole area is pretty much an open floorplan but it still isn't over 810 sq feet.
-I don't know how much of a difference seperates make over just getting an AV reciever? Why do seperates cost so much when a reciever does more and costs less?
-I want to keep the cost below $6000. I would love to keep it around 3 though.
-The system needs to be able to grow. My next house will be a lot bigger and that isn't more than a year or two away.

Any advice people can give will be great. I'm particularly interested in literature that will smarten me up so that I can apply advice I get here and come up with my own opinions.

 

[tbewick]

Separates are higher end usually and cost more money for better performance. Separates are probably worth considering if you're setting your system up in a large room, or if you are using low impedance speakers. Even then, high end integrated amps, like THX Ultra certified ones, should manage reasonably well here.

I've got a few links that I've pillaged over the past year or so:

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/articles/hccarticles/interviews/FloydToole/FloydToole.php

- This one's an interview with acoustic expert Floyd Toole.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_2/feature-article-curves-6-2002.html
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_2/feature-article-dialog-normalization-6-2000.html

- This one's some background on cinema sound and Dolby Digital dialogue normalisation.

www.rane.com

- Lots of useful technical info under Rane Notes, etc., particularly:

http://www.rane.com/note128.html - about power amp clipping. There was a very good THX/Rane article on RTA analysers but I can't find it now.

For positioning your front, full-range speakers, try to allow 1 metre depth from the back wall and 1.5 metres from the side walls. Symmetry in set up and acoustics is best for good two channel stereo performance.

I myself have found sub/bookshelf combinations problematic, but there are advantages to having such a set up. The bass will sound similar across all three front speakers. You can have smaller front speakers. The difficulty is in getting even frequency response and this will usually require equalisation. The Miller & Kreisel website has more about this - http://www.mksound.com/.

 

[Resident Loser]

Quick answer(s)...

...pick your loudspeakers first...they are what you hear, they will dictate the power requirements...after that it's all bells and whistles.

Separates cost more because each unit needs a chassis, power supply and other bits of redundancy...recievers are self-contained...however, IMO and generally speaking, they are not as flexible...if a new, improved surround/processing (actually make that when) scheme is introduced, your entire receiver is rendered been-there-done-that...with separates a new pre/pro is required, your outboard amplification, et al remains intact. Of course there are receivers that can be upgraded, but I believe they are in the $ame $$$ ballpark as some separates. And speaking of amplification, a 7.1 rec rated @100wpc may not be able to summon that power at all times and under all conditions...chances are the separates will pass muster in this regard.

jimHJJ(...one side of the coin...gotta' go...)

 

[ivseenbetter]

Separates are higher end usually and cost more money for better performance. Separates are probably worth considering if you're setting your system up in a large room, or if you are using low impedance speakers. Even then, high end integrated amps, like THX Ultra certified ones, should manage reasonably well here.

I've got a few links that I've pillaged over the past year or so:

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/articles/hccarticles/interviews/FloydToole/FloydToole.php

- This one's an interview with acoustic expert Floyd Toole.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_2/feature-article-curves-6-2002.html
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_2/feature-article-dialog-normalization-6-2000.html

- This one's some background on cinema sound and Dolby Digital dialogue normalisation.

www.rane.com

- Lots of useful technical info under Rane Notes, etc., particularly:

http://www.rane.com/note128.html - about power amp clipping. There was a very good THX/Rane article on RTA analysers but I can't find it now.

For positioning your front, full-range speakers, try to allow 1 metre depth from the back wall and 1.5 metres from the side walls. Symmetry in set up and acoustics is best for good two channel stereo performance.

I myself have found sub/bookshelf combinations problematic, but there are advantages to having such a set up. The bass will sound similar across all three front speakers. You can have smaller front speakers. The difficulty is in getting even frequency response and this will usually require equalisation. The Miller & Kreisel website has more about this - http://www.mksound.com/.

I will take a look at these links! Thanks. I appreciate it.

 

[ivseenbetter]

...pick your loudspeakers first...they are what you hear, they will dictate the power requirements...after that it's all bells and whistles.

Separates cost more because each unit needs a chassis, power supply and other bits of redundancy...recievers are self-contained...however, IMO and generally speaking, they are not as flexible...if a new, improved surround/processing (actually make that when) scheme is introduced, your entire receiver is rendered been-there-done-that...with separates a new pre/pro is required, your outboard amplification, et al remains intact. Of course there are receivers that can be upgraded, but I believe they are in the $ame $$$ ballpark as some separates. And speaking of amplification, a 7.1 rec rated @100wpc may not be able to summon that power at all times and under all conditions...chances are the separates will pass muster in this regard.

jimHJJ(...one side of the coin...gotta' go...)

Ah! The first step! I will definitely look into these first and build from there.

From most of my reading it seems that recievers are used a lot more than seperates. There are a lot more reviews on them and people are always posting deals on them. I wonder if they are more popular because they are cheaper or if the sound quality difference between a good reciever and a good pre/pro are so similar it is hard to tell them apart?

 

[Hi Ho]

If you end up going with seperates, I would consider using a receiver such as the Yamaha 2600 as the pre/pro and buying outboard pro amps. This would be much more economical and it would be very close inperformance to a true seperate system. With that said, I would try running the speakers with the receiver first. If you decide you want more power, you can add outboard amps at any time.

 

[ivseenbetter]

If you end up going with seperates, I would consider using a receiver such as the Yamaha 2600 as the pre/pro and buying outboard pro amps. This would be much more economical and it would be very close inperformance to a true seperate system. With that said, I would try running the speakers with the receiver first. If you decide you want more power, you can add outboard amps at any time.

The only thing I worry about with that type of option is that I may feel like I need more power but the wife may think it is working just fine and then I will have to convince her I need the amp. I will still look into that option though. I noticed on all of the "recommended buy" systems all the way up to the $75,000 system they are using an AVR as the pre/pro. That tends to make me think that even when money is no object it is more productive to go with the AVR.

 

[westcott]

The only thing I worry about with that type of option is that I may feel like I need more power but the wife may think it is working just fine and then I will have to convince her I need the amp. I will still look into that option though. I noticed on all of the "recommended buy" systems all the way up to the $75,000 system they are using an AVR as the pre/pro. That tends to make me think that even when money is no object it is more productive to go with the AVR.

I agree with the others. Spend the bulk of your budget on the speakers. AV recievers come and go but quality speakers should last you a very long time. US$1,000 on an AV receiver and US$4,000 or US$5,000 for speakers is a good spending ratio if you intend to keep your speakers for a long time. Lots of good receivers in this price range that, as others have suggested, can be upgraded with separate amps if you feel the need after your system is set up.

Good Luck and keep us posted on what you decide to do.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Ah! The first step! I will definitely look into these first and build from there.

From most of my reading it seems that receives are used a lot more than separates. There are a lot more reviews on them and people are always posting deals on them. I wonder if they are more popular because they are cheaper or if the sound quality difference between a good reciever and a good pre/pro are so similar it is hard to tell them apart?

Well, a number of reasons why receivers are so popular. It meets most peoples need very well. Just read the reviews at the home page here on the Yam 2600 and Denon 3805. Super components.

As to sound, as long as you are withing design limits, yes, the sound will be difficult to differentiate.

As was stated above, speakers first as that will have a impedance and sensitivity that an amp needs to be able to handle. But, speakers are also part of your acoustic space, so be careful what you select, how and what might happen in your listening space. Then, the amp/receiver.
DVD player is a separate issue not dependent on the receiver or speakers.

 

[ivseenbetter]

Well, a number of reasons why receivers are so popular. It meets most peoples need very well. Just read the reviews at the home page here on the Yam 2600 and Denon 3805. Super components.

As to sound, as long as you are withing design limits, yes, the sound will be difficult to differentiate.

As was stated above, speakers first as that will have a impedance and sensitivity that an amp needs to be able to handle. But, speakers are also part of your acoustic space, so be careful what you select, how and what might happen in your listening space. Then, the amp/receiver.
DVD player is a separate issue not dependent on the receiver or speakers.

What do you mean when you say I need to be careful of what speakers I select because they are part of my acoustic space? Are you saying that the size and shape of the speakers can change the sound of my room?

 

[Nick250]

What Marty is getting at is that a given set of speakers can sound quite differently from room to room, or showroom vs your home listening room. So room acoustics can be a big deal. If at all possible demo speakers at home before committing to the purchase.

 

[westcott]

What do you mean when you say I need to be careful of what speakers I select because they are part of my acoustic space? Are you saying that the size and shape of the speakers can change the sound of my room?

Different speaker designs have different characteristics from very dependant on room interactions to speakers that are influenced very little by the walls, ceiling, and floor. Large speakers perform best in larger rooms and you can put too much speaker in a room. Bigger is not always better.

For example, I chose a speaker that is less influenced by room interactions because I knew room treatments would not be immediately availbable to me. I also chose a larger system for the large space I had to fill.

Here is a link to speaker setups and I would suggest a Google search for Dr. Toole, Thiel, and others for more detailed information on how critical speaker placement and selection can be.

Audioholics Speaker Setup Tips

Hope this helps.

 

[mtrycrafts]

What Marty is getting at is that a given set of speakers can sound quite differently from room to room, or showroom vs your home listening room. So room acoustics can be a big deal. If at all possible demo speakers at home before committing to the purchase.

Yes, thank you
Our psychic powers are getting finely tuned

 

[ivseenbetter]

Well, I know that I have a pretty small room right now and that the acoustics for the room probably aren't the best since it opens to the kitchen...but I plan to be buying a new house within the next year or two and I know my next living room will be much larger. I don't want to upgrade that soon so I am trying to go above my needs of today to meet my needs for tomorrow. I will try looking into some speakers that are less likely to be affected by placement.

 

[mulester7]

As to sound, as long as you are withing design limits, yes, the sound will be difficult to differentiate.

.....and the farmer hauled another load away......

 

[ivseenbetter]

.....and the farmer hauled another load away......

So, you're saying that there is a difference? I'm actually leading towards getting seperates anyway right now. I figure if I spring for mid level seperates I can spend a decent amount on my amp and that part of my system should last me a very long time. My understanding is that amp technology doesn't change too much and I shouldn't need to upgrade this piece unless it dies on me. Then I can can slowly upgrade the pre/pro over time as I save up even more (also selling my old one and applying the cash to the new one). This should make the move from mid level to hifi less painful and more gradual.

I figure if I went with just an AV reciever I would be stuck upgrading the whole system every time I wanted new features and that could get expensive over time. The only thing that makes me think I would go with a reciever is this link:

http://www.ubid.com/Pioneer_VSX-9300TX_100-Watt_7.1_Channel_Audio_Video_Receiver/a800729084-rsearchall.html

From what I hear that is a "top of the line" product. Maybe it would be worth it to spring for that? Everybody here has a better feel for the pulse of this industry. I wasn't planning on springing for anything until the end of the year, however, what are the chances that a deal this good will come along again near the end of the year on something of equal value? If it would cost me more than $2000 to compete with this using seperates than I may just have to jump on this. I would still rather wait until the end of the year but I don't know how often a deal like this comes along.

 

[jcPanny]

Emotiva amps

AV123.com came out with a new Emotiva UL pre-pro and amp in the same price range as mid-fi receivers, about $1k for both. They also have a deal running on their high end MPS-1 7 channel amp for $1700 through the link on the secrets of HT site.

 

[ZoFo]

That is not Pioneers top of the line

If you are looking for that check out their ELITE line of AV receivers & DVD players, it's going to cost you more than $500 for an ELITE Receiver. This line is totally separate from the regular pioneer line, kind of like Optima is the high-end line for Onkyo.

I would go for the separates too, I made the change over from Receivers back in January and have been very happy with the sound quality and flexibility. I went overkill on my amp so I would not be limited on the type of speakers I could use with my system and sure enough a few months latter I found a killer deal on some Reference speakers that were 4 ohm & 88 db; 7 of these would have choked my Receiver.

Receivers defiantly have their place and suite most just fine but you keep talking about upgrading and moving to a larger space - sounds like a good fit for separates to me. Check the Internet Direct companies like Outlaw and AV123 - I have purchased from both and the customer support is way above what you would get with a mass-marketed name brand.

 

[mtrycrafts]

So, you're saying that there is a difference? I'm .

Well, not when you compare thing properly and don't exceed design limits. Some just don't know how to compare and come the a flawed conclusion.

 

[ejreiss]

I strongly suggest you go check out outlaw. They make excellent audio equipment at extremely low prices. Go read some reviews and check them out. I just bought the 990 pre pro and 7125 amp. I just couldn't get that kind of value and performance from any other make. Just right for your budget. With all the money I was able to save I was also able to buy really good speakers.