Timbre matching...only important for music?

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

I am in a transitional period with a hodge podge of speakers currently.
I have always read how important timbre matching is for at least the front stage.
I have noticed no ill effects of having different brand L&R's and center.
Now, I almost always listen to music in 2.1, but all tv programming and BR movies utilize all seven speakers.
I watched No Country for Old Men again last night on BR and I noticed no ill effects from the different speakers.

So is it either:
A. Am I correct in now believing it isn't a big deal?
--OR--
B. My hearing is so cruddy and that is why I don't hear any audible issues?


The reason I ask is that since I haven't noticed any problems, if I could stop trying to find a timbre matched center and go with the best center I can afford since it is 'SO' dominant in movies?

 

[3db]

I am in a transitional period with a hodge podge of speakers currently.
I have always read how important timbre matching is for at least the front stage.
I have noticed no ill effects of having different brand L&R's and center.
Now, I almost always listen to music in 2.1, but all tv programming and BR movies utilize all seven speakers.
I watched No Country for Old Men again last night on BR and I noticed no ill effects from the different speakers.

So is it either:
A. Am I correct in now believing it isn't a big deal?
--OR--
B. My hearing is so cruddy and that is why I don't hear any audible issues?


The reason I ask is that since I haven't noticed any problems, if I could stop trying to find a timbre matched center and go with the best center I can afford since it is 'SO' dominant in movies?

There could be a couple reasons for this.
a). Maybe your very close in timbre with your colection of various speakers
b). Maybe you don't know what to listen for when it comes to timbre matching and because of this, you don't notice it; the ignorance is bliss train of thought.

For music, 2.1 uses the L/R and a sub so you wouldn't notice a timber change between L/R and the sub . For HT, the center is employed so you should notice a difference as a sound pans across from Left to Center to Right front speakers or visa versa. The surrounds don't have to match the fronts and center for HT but should be matched for doing multichannel audio.

 

[Audioholics]

The biggest problem I hear is a timbe shift when something pans across the front 3 speakers. For some people, however, their rooms are so acoustically challenged that this will happen even if they have 3 identical speakers. It's a relative issue that affects everyone differently.

 

[Davemcc]

I started with a matched set of Era D5's as my front three speakers. I recently switched to a set of Dynaudio for my L/R mains keeping the Era center. So far, I haven't noticed any disconcerting effects effects from this setup. Bad room? Bad ears? Blissful ignorance? I don't know, but I'm OK with my Frankenstein setup.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

I have separate systems for music and HT. For me, they are very different experiences and have different requirements.

 

[trnqk7]

I DO notice it when I have pans across the front between my Ikon's through the Sony center channel...hopefully, the rest of the Ikon's will be here soon so I can see if that helps! It's not terrible-my wife doesn't notice it...but it is there if you are listening for it.

 

[bandphan]

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1014712

 

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

I have separate systems for music and HT. For me, they are very different experiences and have different requirements.

I cannot afford that. Wish I could though as I know what you mean.

I think it may just be a colaboration of all those things, the similar speakers, horrible acoustic room, bad hearing and ignorance is bliss.
Wish it were that way for video, as I could have saved a ton of money and gotten a much better audio set-up.

So, the mismatched center will be gone come saturday along with all my surrounds. So I will be left with just my new towers.
Should I do either:
1. Buy the best center from the same maker as the towers?
---OR---
2. Try to find a center that would be closely matched timbre-wise from whatever company that happens to offer it?
***The "matched" center for my towers, which are 3-way, are only 2-way. I would like at least a 3-way center if not a 4-way since the center is so important in movies which is a huge chunk of my viewing.

 

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1014712

Is it bad to go to different sites to get as much information as possible from each sites' knowledgeable memebers?
I do that for everything I go online for, for all my interests and hobbies.
There are just too many people out there with good information to not try to gather it all up, imo.

 

[bandphan]

Is it bad to go to different sites to get as much information as possible from each sites' knowledgeable memebers?
I do that for everything I go online for, for all my interests and hobbies.
There are just too many people out there with good information to not try to gather it all up, imo.

no i didnt say anything. info is good thats why i linked it back

 

[peterL]

I used to have a Polk system where my mains (bookshelves) and center were timbre matched. After a while, like most people who make this mistake, I became dissatisfied with my impulse purchase at Circuit City. I bought some JBL towers to replace the Polk bookshelves because I was a poor grad student at the time and just wanted something better for music (more low end). The JBLs were better for music, but after a while I started to notice the dialog in movies not sounding right (comparatively). I bought the matching JBL center and it was night and day difference.

My advice is don't worry about 2-way vs 3-way. Sometimes more isn't better. A 2-way speaker has fewer things to screw up.... That said, I don't know what speakers you have.

I've since scrapped that entire setup (not a grad student anymore ). I'm currently without a center (or a sub), but I'm surprised how little I miss them and how well my 4.0 system is doing in the interim. That said, I'll be getting the matching center and a sub soon.

 

[fredk]

Reading your initial post, I am not clear on whether or not you have issues with your current system? Why is it you want a better center? are you having problems with dialog or pans across the front?

If you don't have any issues with your current sytem I wouldn't rush out to replace anything.

If you are really concerned, go to an audio store that has a dedicated listening room set up for 5.1, take your favourite movie with you and do some listening. This will give you some sense of what matched fronts sound like.

Then go home and listen again. Do you hear any difference?

If the matched system sounded better to you, then you know that changing components can improve your movie watching experience.

If it doesn't, there is no point as what you have at home is working just fine. Don't go spending money just because others say you should have matching fronts.

Fred

 

[Exit]

"Should I do either:
1. Buy the best center from the same maker as the towers?
---OR---
2. Try to find a center that would be closely matched timbre-wise from whatever company that happens to offer it?
***The "matched" center for my towers, which are 3-way, are only 2-way. I would like at least a 3-way center if not a 4-way since the center is so important in movies which is a huge chunk of my viewing."

Alternative 2 would be hard to do because there is no way to tell if another brand of speaker timber matches other than by ear and the human brain has a poor memory of sound going from your house to the store. There are no standards or measurements you could reliably go by.

Alternative 1 is feasible because the manufacturer probably uses the same tweeter between the mains and center channel. I made the mistake of buying a small center channel and I now wish I had bought a large one, so I would advise you to buy a good sized center channel even though they cost more than you think you should spend. If small is all they offer, try to make sure it goes down to at least 70 Hz to cover an 80 Hz subwoofer crossover.

 

[jostenmeat]

Hello Eagles, while I do know that others can sometimes feel very, very strongly about "matching", I think it can be a bit over-exaggerated for HT. Just one opinion here.

Currently, my present HT setup is a 7.1 PSB system, but the center channel is a Martin Logan with an ATF tweeter + mid (x-over'd at 500hz). Trust me, I did entertain the idea of trading my ML in for a matching center. My dealer would accomodate me, no problem.

The greatest advantage I would get with a large PSB center would be the increased dynamic range, extension, etc, stuff that simply comes from a larger speaker (they get really big!). The ML has very poor extension.

But I find that the ATF is soooo good with dialogue, IMO. I rather have dialogue as discernable as possible, with as little sibilance as possible (and this speaker has the lowest amount of sibilance compared to any "center channel" that I've heard). To give up this excellent trait just to have it matching doesn't work for my desires. However, I did not audition nearly as many center channels as I did stereo mains.

I've been watching a lot of movies lately. The most common front pans I find are cars passing by. I would be loathe to give up vocal excellence to make passing cars sound a tiny bit more consistent, and not that I would notice because I am listening to the actors' voices over that background "noise". For music, I think matching is much more important, but I don't listen to multi-ch anyways. For HT, most panning sound effects are unfamiliar to us (unlike with musical intruments and the human voice), such as alien spaceships (pick movie), tank shells (well, unfamiliar to me anyways, the Pianist, Behind Enemy Lines), flying fairies (Pan's Labyrinth), etc. OK, I appreciate the idea of making these "artificial" sounds to be more consistent, but since they happen to be unfamiliar to me, I might be much more forgiving.

With either ML or PSB, I think that I do, or would, suffer off-axis issues (unless I got an upright bookshelf). (The ML has a top mounted tweeter, but the off-axis issue is due more to the speaker tech, AFAIK), If I did this all over again, or wanted to upgrade my center (a veritable future possibility), I would definitely audition center channels that best deal with lobing. Perhaps B&W, Revel, or a coaxial KEF for instance. Still, a bookshelf is better designed.

I have no idea if ID brands would let you buy a single bookshelf, but I don't see why not.

In conclusion, my opinion is that one should pick a center with these attributes, in order of importance according to ME:

- clear dialogue with zero sibilance if possible
- off-axis response, or the avoidance of lobing as much as possible
- extension and/or ability to crank, dig, etc, as HT asks the center of sooo much

- matching.

I know some people think Im crazy, but hey that's ok!

 

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

I know, the center is 'so' important for movies, that is why I want to get as good of one as I can afford as long as it doesn't clash big time with my fronts. That is what I want as well...stronger vocals, and can forgive not super matched cars and planes that last for just seconds.
**What is ATF?
**Where can I find a list of center channels that reportedly do well with lobing?
**Are you suggesting a bookshelf on its' side for the center channel instead of a dedicated/specifically designed center channel?


Fredk...My 5.1 Paradigm set-up(of which I'm still using the center channel is being sold this saturday.

 

[jostenmeat]

1. Advanced Thin-Film Drivers

http://www.us.martinlogan.com/speaker_details/fresco_i.html#atf

The ATF is actually made by Bohlender-Graebener. However, I find that off-axis response is still wanting. If I ever upgrade the center, I would really love this vocal ability with much superior off-axis response, but I am not sure if it exists. ML makes the similarity of this tech to electrostats which I find to be even better with voice, but even more compromising off-axis. ML makes "center speakers" but I actually find the tweeter they put in the middle of the electrostat to produce significantly more sibilance than the much more affordable ATF speakers. They will also be more finicky for placement. As for buying BG, I've heard everything from being more affordable to being extremely pricey.

2. AVS had an excellent thread a while back called the "Perfect Center Speaker" or something like that. I can't find it yet using the search function, sorry, but the brand names I listed were in that thread. There was also a follow-up thread shortly after called the "almost perfect center channel", which I also failed to find.

3. I absolutely do not recommend a bookshelf on its side. I had one friend last year follow my recommendation for him: 3 pairs of identical speakers. For the same money as a 5.1 system, they got a 6.1 system with a superior center design. Let alone the whole "matching" thing. Well, we played with the center on its side and it was truly compromised, a lot more muddled.

However, even if the tweeter is top-mounted on a "better designed" center, there can and will be lobing from the mid being placed between the woofers. Although the extent of this compromise is very dependent on the x-over point. So... that's why I said that a vertical bookshelf is still a superior design.

Then figure that top-end BWs, Revels, or KEFs are quite pricey. If you find a bookshelf you like very much, it still could be a lot cheaper as a pair (with unused speaker) then the lines aforementioned. I don't know. I guess you could keep the spare for replacement parts, or even throw it in the back for a 6.1, heh. This is assuming that no one would sell you an individual speaker.

Before pulling the trigger, you might even find someone to split the purchase with you, as they could use it as a center as well. I even once saw a guy musingly ask another if he wanted to split a pair of $10k Summits to use as tower center channels... hehe.

Keep us updated on your search.

 

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

Thanks for the help.

I can't have an uporight center channel due to set-up constraints.
So I should look at B&W, Revel and Kef for a center channel. As well as try to find those two threads.