"Tight" Sub for under 1k?

[Methost]

Today I took my very first venture in to an audio boutique. I must say it was a wonderful experience.

I also heard for the first time the difference between a $500 sub and a $1000.

I listened to both the Dynamo ($500) and the Grotto ($1000) by Martin Logan. All I can say is .. wow.

Until I hear it, I really didn't understand what the word "tight" meant when talking about subs.

So my question is this ... How much does one have to spend to get a nice "tight" sub? I really enjoyed the fact that when the sub was supposed to stop making noise, it did just that. And it did it "right now". No fade to the vibrations at all. It was crisp, clean and ... well ... tight.

So who makes a sub that can match up to this one?

Oh, and as far as actually being in a brick and morter store, I LOVED it. And this is from a guy who buys everything from shoes to my refrigerator online.


Edit - I already found the $1000 Grotto online for $650 shipped. As much as I appreciate the time this salesperson spent with me, I would find it VERY hard to pay his price when I can save $350 by getting it online. Maybe if their prices were a bit closer I would consider the boutique

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

The ML's have a signature sound IMO. They are one of my favorite, even over the SVS subs.

The way to tame a cheap sub (get rid of the resonance) is to unscrew the driver, and see how much damping material you have in your cabinet. Most may not know, but the JBL E250 has none. If you were to install acoustic foam, or some type of batting to the interior surfaces, you can eliminate most of the resonance. If you were to pull a driver out of a ML sub, I'd bet most of the interior volume would be filled with some type of damping materials. Secondly, one way to overcome resonance/reverb would be to purchase a sealed enclosure (as opposed to a ported design). Sealed enclosures require many times more watts to obtain the same dB, but they tend to sound more like the ML's you demo'd. Sealed enclosures are very inefficient, but the payoffs with proper amplification are awesome - especially with music.

 

[Methost]

resonance

I knew there was a word for the sound that I wasn't hearing out of that sub. Thanks. To my newbie ear it almost sounded like something was missing from the sound. Because I had never heard a sub sound that good before. Now I have not heard that many subs, and none in that price range, so I had nothing to compair it to. But it was a sweet sound I can tell you.


What would one use for packing material? Is it safe just to pack that sucker full of the stuff?

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

I knew there was a word for the sound that I wasn't hearing out of that sub. Thanks. To my newbie ear it almost sounded like something was missing from the sound. Because I had never heard a sub sound that good before. Now I have not heard that many subs, and none in that price range, so I had nothing to compair it to. But it was a sweet sound I can tell you.


What would one use for packing material? Is it safe just to pack that sucker full of the stuff?

Here you go. This stuff works wonders.
http://www.partexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=260-515

Here's the generic way of doing it:
http://www.partexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=260-317

 

[j_garcia]

If you were to pull a driver out of a ML sub, I'd bet most of the interior volume would be filled with some type of damping materials.

Polyfil is polyester fiber that is used to stuff pillows; can be found most everywhere. There are things like BlackHole5 and Acoustastuff too.

Dampening material serves a very specific purpose, and it modifies the tuning of the cabinet. No, you cannot just stuff a bunch of it into any sub and create a silk purse out of a sow's ear. With cheap or not so well designed subs that are a bit boomy it can be beneficial, but that still doesn't mean you can just stuff it full. What happens is, the driver "thinks" the cabinet is larger than it is because the filler absorbs the energy of the back wave. This also changes the resistance of the driver to move the volume of air within the cabinet though, modifying the tuning.

Under $1k, this may be your guy: http://www.adireaudio.com/Home/Rava.htm The previous version is highly regarded as a great sealed sub.

 

[bupton]

Hey Buckeye!

I was just reading your remarks about the ML subs and it got me wondering... I am looking to get a new sub for my HT and am VERY interested in sealed enclosure designs. I use my system for approximately 70-80 music over theatre. I have been looking at a few B&W subs (800 series) because they seem to be about the only ones that I have found here in Germany that are not ported. How would you compare the ML subs to these? Also, do you have any experience with the ACI line of subs?

 

[Methost]

I was just reading your remarks about the ML subs and it got me wondering... I am looking to get a new sub for my HT and am VERY interested in sealed enclosure designs. I use my system for approximately 70-80 music over theatre. I have been looking at a few B&W subs (800 series) because they seem to be about the only ones that I have found here in Germany that are not ported. How would you compare the ML subs to these? Also, do you have any experience with the ACI line of subs?

I also listened to a B&W sub back to back with the ML sub. Both were priced at $1000 (Do not remember the model of the B&W). I liked the ML much better. Even the salesman said he liked the ML better and his store features B&W stuff. As a matter of fact, they used the ML Grotto with the B&W surround speakers as their demo system ... for selling the B&W speakers!

Now I have a VERY amature ear, but to me, the B&W sounded a bit ... boomy. And there was a bit more resonance in it then there was in the ML. I preferred the cleaner sound of the ML.

 

[mulester7]

Edit - I already found the $1000 Grotto online for $650 shipped. As much as I appreciate the time this salesperson spent with me, I would find it VERY hard to pay his price when I can save $350 by getting it online. Maybe if their prices were a bit closer I would consider the boutique

.....Methost, it's become a dog-eat-dog situation concerning the spending of our money relative to buying online vs. retail outlets, and like it or not, the brick-and-mortor stores are wearin' Milk-Bone underwear....

 

[bupton]

Hey Metho

Where did you find the ML sub online? I am not sure if I will be able to find one here in Germany to demo, and am curious about having one shipped over...

 

[MACCA350]

If your looking for accurate bass reproduction have a listen to some Servo controlled subs. They basically compare the imput signal to what the cone is actually doing and adjusts it many times per second(in the Velo DD series its 16,000) to correctly reproduce the imput signal. These Servo designs will give you the tightest and cleanest and quickest bassline.

cheers

 

[MACCA350]

Just read the Grotto specs and realised it is a Servo design

 

[bupton]

Yep!

I also like the idea of multiple smaller drivers versus a single larger one, especially in a more music orriented system as long as the cabinet is up a good design. The smaller drivers will generally provided a much quicker and tighter attack time.

 

[MACCA350]

The smaller drivers will generally provided a much quicker and tighter attack time.

Only if your comparing non-servo subs. If you compare a multiple small driver sub to a servo sub with a larger driver, all things being equal, the servo sub will be quicker, tighter and accurate to the source signal

cheers

 

[shokhead]

Only if your comparing non-servo subs. If you compare a multiple small driver sub to a servo sub with a larger driver, all things being equal, the servo sub will be quicker, tighter and accurate to the source signal

cheers

SVS or HSU for good bang for the buck and better then most. Ran across a MD Quartz Sub,i dont have the info in front of me but it was a $2500 sub on closeout for $999 from Audioadvisor. Might even be free shipping.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

If you like the sound of the ML subs, and bang for the buck is important, I don't think you can do better than this for the money. I'm considering one (PE is an hour from Columbus, so I'll demo this next time I'm out that way), as I listen to music/HT 50/50. If it was 10/90, I'd go with a big, bad SVS PB12 Plus 2. I really like the sealed enclosure for music.

The ML Descent is just a tad out of my price range, and really is too much for my current system. But it's probably one of the best manufactured subs you can buy for music or movies IMO.

www.partexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=300-764

www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_pb12_plus_2.htm

www.martinlogan.com/descent_speaker.html
They are very conservative in the amp rating of 400 watts. It's rated at .07% THD! Imagine the output at 1%, or even 10% where many subs are rated. Mfg's claim bass distortion is inaudible under 10%.

 

[annunaki]

Just because a woofer uses a servo does not mean it is automatically going to have better transient response, lower distortion ect.

A really well designed subwoofer (driver) with a very linear motor design can easily match a servo woofer. It (linear motor design) attacks the problem at the source, resulting in lower distortion throughout the entire stroke of the woofer. SVS' woofers use good (linear motor) designed drivers, as do Adire Audio and JL Audio's woofers. A properly designed enclosure that works well wioth the driver also helps greatly.

 

[MACCA350]

Thats why I said 'all things being equal'. I have a Velodyne DD15(AUD$5,400) but I wouldnt compare it to a non-servo AU$200 sub. Also most servo subs would already have top notch drivers, voice coils, electronics, etc(at least in the Velodyne DD's, Paradigm Servo15, and others)

cheers

 

[shokhead]

Thats why I said 'all things being equal'. I have a Velodyne DD15(AUD$5,400) but I wouldnt compare it to a non-servo AU$200 sub. Also most servo subs would already have top notch drivers, voice coils, electronics, etc(at least in the Velodyne DD's, Paradigm Servo15, and others)

cheers

I wouldnt compare any sub where there's a $5200 difference.

 

[MACCA350]

I wouldnt compare any sub where there's a $5200 difference.

Yes, my point exactly.

cheers