Thoughts on a new pre/pro

[NanoEtch599GTB]

Right now I am using a Yammie reciever as my pre-out and am in the market for a new processor. I would like to keep the budget ~$3k or less.

I am considering a couple I can get in that ballpark price figure. The two contenders thus far are the Cary Cinema 11a and the new Integra DHC-80.1. I like the idea of having the latest and greatest with the Integra, but am weary of its ability to produce good SQ with analog inputs as has been mentioned in the past. The Cary 11a is well known for its SQ, but isn't new and lacks extra HDMI ins/outs. This is not a huge deal as I don't do any video processing in my current pre and could get by with just the two. Any thoughts/comparisons/reviews?

 

[selden]

Marantz has a reputation for high quality analog audio

Their AV8003 pre/pro (priced between the Integra and the Cary) has 4 HDMI inputs and two outputs (e.g. for projector and/or TV) as well as Audyssey room equalization and lossless audio decoding (although not at the same time).

 

[jostenmeat]

Right now I am using a Yammie reciever as my pre-out and am in the market for a new processor. I would like to keep the budget ~$3k or less.

What components do you have that must be connected via analog connections?

At 3k, I would start familiarizing myself with Anthem products. In all likelihood, the D2v is still too high in price, as well as the 50v.

However, I think the AVM50 still comes with ARC. You can also get the the D2 (non-V) with ARC. I suppose this brand means used market as far as this budget. I'm not sure what improvements were made with "V", but I'm just throwing this brand out there.

Otherwise, if it was me, I'd get the 80.1 with stated budget, most likely, out of the available selection.

Oh yeah, another thing to possibly consider, particularly if your analog sources are 2 channel, is having an HT processor, and add a 2ch pre/pro with HT bypass. At that point you can do something like the 40.1 + 2ch pre. Don't know too much about this stuff, but the pre/pro you choose should have "unity gain" that passes thru while off, so as not to imbue its signature with mch stuff.

 

[walter duque]

Like jostenmeat states, Anthem is the way to go. If you don't mind Lexicon, this might interrest you. The price seems right and I am sure it's negotiable. It might just suit your needs.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Brand-New-3-000-Lexicon-MV-5-Surround-Processor-MV5_W0QQitemZ170470840563QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item27b0da98f3

That's his store website.
http://www.highendzone.com/amps.shtml

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I've read the review on the new Cary Audio 11a and compared that to the Denon AVP-A1HDCI and AVR5308CI.

The brand new price is $4K vs $7.5K, but a refurbished Denon AVP-A1 from Dakmart (1 yr warranty) is around $3,900.

A refurbished Denon AVR5308 is $2700 right now @ eCost.

If you want to be "old school hard-core" and compare the measured specs (FR, Crosstalk, THD, SNR), the Denon AVP-A1 is the best, the Cary Audio 11a is 2nd, and the AVR5308 is 3rd.

But in real life, all three would be pretty much even to one another and they would be pretty much equal to the Marantz, Integra, & Anthem.

I think Cary Audio, Bryston, and some other companies believe that they should "separate" Audio from Video.

It's a good idea, but HDMI is both Audio & Video combined. The 11a & the upcoming Bryston pre-pro both contain HDMI inputs. So how can they truly separate Audio & Video?

By giving you 2 HDMI Inputs/1 Output, instead of 6 or 8 Inputs/2 Outputs?

Right.

And if their theory is correct, then their pre-pros should kick a$$ when it comes to the measured specs, right?

The AVP-A1 has a crosstalk of -108dB @ 1kHz (Audioholics). It has THD of like 0.002%. SNR is -115dB. FR is 20Hz-20kHz +/- 0.00dB.

The 11a has a crosstalk of -92dB @ 1kHz (HTM). It has a THD of 0.02%. SNR is -121dB. FR is 20Hz-20kHz +/-0.07dB.

In real life, there's nothing to complain about in both cases. But if you want to go hard-core, the AVP-A1 beats the 11a in crosstalk, THD, & FR. The 11a (as well as the Marantz & Anthem) beats the AVP-A1 in SNR.

So I would rather get a refurbished AVP-A1 for $3,900 than pay $4,000 for a new 11a.

Now if I can get both a 11a + 11v refurbished for $4K, that would be a different story. But even then, I would still probably get the Denon AVP-A1.

 

[Seth=L]

Right now I am using a Yammie reciever as my pre-out and am in the market for a new processor. I would like to keep the budget ~$3k or less.

I am considering a couple I can get in that ballpark price figure. The two contenders thus far are the Cary Cinema 11a and the new Integra DHC-80.1. I like the idea of having the latest and greatest with the Integra, but am weary of its ability to produce good SQ with analog inputs as has been mentioned in the past. The Cary 11a is well known for its SQ, but isn't new and lacks extra HDMI ins/outs. This is not a huge deal as I don't do any video processing in my current pre and could get by with just the two. Any thoughts/comparisons/reviews?

Which Yamaha receiver are you using for a preamp?

 

[NanoEtch599GTB]

Thank you all for your replies. All lot of food for thought.

To answer some questions posted to me in replies:
1.) I use an Oppo BDP-83SE via analog out for CD/SACD/BRD audio. HDMI for video only. Call me weird but I like the way it sounds in this configuration best. Based on doing some AB switching courtesy of being able to use HDMI audio feature on oppo left on, I like the analog out hands down no contest.
2.) I am using Yamaha Rx-v1800 right now as a pre. It's not half bad, does the job so to speak, but would really like to step up to a designed separate pre/pro to match my Parasound A51/A21 combo. Not sure if I will hear any difference, but I'd like to feel out some responses.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Call me weird but I like the way it sounds in this configuration best. Based on doing some AB switching courtesy of being able to use HDMI audio feature on oppo left on, I like the analog out hands down no contest.

You kind of sound like me a couple of years ago.

I hooked up the HDMI directly to the TV just for Video ony and used the Analog for Audio.

You could get a brand new flagship ATI ATP8700 pre-pro (retail $6K) for around $1,300 (make an offer since asking price is $1500, but I would offer $1,000 since they might be desperate to move these):
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homeproc&1275687570

It's one of those pre-pros that is designed for "Analog Audio Only".

It's kind of tempting to get a brand new ATP8700 that is retailed for $6K for only around $1K!

Or you could get the matching Parasound Halo P7 7.1 analog preamp for $2K:
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PAHAP7

 

[AVRat]

http://www.hometheatermag.com/preampprocessors/cary_audio_cinema_11a_surround_processor_and_model_7125_amplifier/

 

[NanoEtch599GTB]

Thanks for all the input. I actually got a pretty good deal on the Cary 11a and went with it. I haven't gotten a chance to really test it out, but the SQ is amazing! It is a bare bones system though with no bells and whistels and to this extent it is a bit disappointing. It doesn't have OSD for example and only 2 HDMI, but that is ok with me for PS3 and BDP. If anyone is interested I will post a more in depth review.

 

[TLS Guy]

Thanks for all the input. I actually got a pretty good deal on the Cary 11a and went with it. I haven't gotten a chance to really test it out, but the SQ is amazing! It is a bare bones system though with no bells and whistels and to this extent it is a bit disappointing. It doesn't have OSD for example and only 2 HDMI, but that is ok with me for PS3 and BDP. If anyone is interested I will post a more in depth review.

That is why the high end is dead. Their only hope now is to keep selling spurious and dubious outrageously priced products to wealthy people too stupid to own equipment.

It is their fault, so I have little sympathy. Peter Walker warned them loud and and clear years ago that they would come to a sticky end hyping loony products. They should have been reinvesting in cutting edge products in the customers interests that advances the cause. They have done anything but and took the lazy approach.

I would be interested in your review though.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think it's an excellent product, but I'm just not willing to pay $4K for it.

I'm willing to pay $2K for it and another $2K for the 11v............maybe.

I'll be interested to see how the 11v will be connected to the 11a and if that will mess up the sound.

 

[NanoEtch599GTB]

TLS
It's sad, but I have to agree. There are some really good sounding units out there that are way way over priced. A unit like this should at the very least have had OSD for menu. It took me a long time to stomach spending ~ 3k for a processor, even though it had the SQ I was after. I cant imagine spending >10k like some out there.

By the way, I dont believe I am too stupid to own equipment.

 

[TLS Guy]

TLS
It's sad, but I have to agree. There are some really good sounding units out there that are way way over priced. A unit like this should at the very least have had OSD for menu. It took me a long time to stomach spending ~ 3k for a processor, even though it had the SQ I was after. I cant imagine spending >10k like some out there.

By the way, I dont believe I am too stupid to own equipment.

You have only bought a 3K pre pro. I'm talking about $20,000 cables and $10,000 up CD players!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

TLS
It's sad, but I have to agree. There are some really good sounding units out there that are way way over priced. A unit like this should at the very least have had OSD for menu. It took me a long time to stomach spending ~ 3k for a processor, even though it had the SQ I was after. I cant imagine spending >10k like some out there.

By the way, I dont believe I am too stupid to own equipment.

I just can't imagine setting up anything without OSD.

They invented OSD 20 years ago?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Integra DTC-9.8 $1,600:
crosstalk -93dB, THD 0.019%, FR 20-20kHz +/-0.0dB, SNR -125dB

Integrs DTC-9.9 $1,600:
crosstalk -94dB, THD 0.019%, FR 20-20kHz +/-0.0dB, SNR -124dB


Cary Audio 11a $4,000:
crosstalk -92dB, THD 0.023%, FR 20-20kHz +/-0.1dB, SNR -121dB

Denon AVP-A1 $7,500:
crosstalk -108dB, THD 0.002%, FR 20-20kHz +/-0.0dB, SNR -115dB

So if the Integra beats the Cary Audio in all 4 major categories of measured specs, how can the Cary Audio be more pure in audio or sound better in audio?

 

[jostenmeat]

ADTG, it's fun when you list your SNR specs and such, but it would be cool if sometimes you could link where you are getting these numbers. Thanks, I appreciate it.

 

[TLS Guy]

Integra DTC-9.8 $1,600:
crosstalk -93dB, THD 0.019%, FR 20-20kHz +/-0.0dB, SNR -125dB

Integrs DTC-9.9 $1,600:
crosstalk -94dB, THD 0.019%, FR 20-20kHz +/-0.0dB, SNR -124dB


Cary Audio 11a $4,000:
crosstalk -92dB, THD 0.023%, FR 20-20kHz +/-0.1dB, SNR -121dB

Denon AVP-A1 $7,500:
crosstalk -108dB, THD 0.002%, FR 20-20kHz +/-0.0dB, SNR -115dB

So if the Integra beats the Cary Audio in all 4 major categories of measured specs, how can the Cary Audio be more pure in audio or sound better in audio?

The Marantz AV 8003 has SNR of 106 db at 1 Volt at 500 Hz A unweighted in pure direct mode. This was measured by me. It is properly specified and actually means something. The other specs are not properly defined and are basically meaningless.

The distortion was so low I could not measure.

The really nice thing is that it has about the highest head room of any device I have ever owned I think. This is much more important than distortion specs. It is running out of head room that really causes distortion not the minute amounts above. MRSP is $2600 and I got mine for $2300 including rack mounting kit.

I personally think that unit is the best value of the lot for my purposes. All the software and the unit is rock solid stable and shows not temperament.

This unit is strongly recommended.

 

[PENG]

This was measured by me. It is properly specified and actually means something. The other specs are not properly defined and are basically meaningless.

You have got to be kidding!! I normally can't stand people who talk like that but I know that's just me.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Here is an example from HTM regarding the Cary Audio 11a:

"Response from the multichannel input to the main output in Bypass mode measures –0.03 dB at 10 Hz, –0.00 dB at 20 Hz, +0.00 dB at 20 kHz, and +0.01 dB at 50 kHz. The analog THD+N is less than 0.023 percent at 1 kHz with a 100-millivolt input and the volume control set to -6. Crosstalk with a 100-mV input was –92.50 dB left to right and –92.02 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with a 100-mV input from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –121.21 dBrA.—MJP "

http://hometheatermag.com/preampprocessors/cary_audio_cinema_11a_surround_processor_and_model_7125_amplifier/index5.html

http://hometheatermag.com/preampprocessors/denon_avp-a1hdci_surround_processor_and_poa-a1hdci_amplifier/index4.html

http://hometheatermag.com/preampprocessors/integra_dhc-99_surround_processor/index3.html

http://hometheatermag.com/preampprocessors/1008mar/index4.html

http://hometheatermag.com/preampprocessors/908ant/

http://hometheatermag.com/preampprocessors/508integra/index3.html

http://hometheatermag.com/receivers/808denr/index3.html