Thinking about changing to a preamp

[3db]

I would imagine the list is pre-Z7. The Z7 is half the Z11.

The Z7 can be(not act as) a dedicated pre-pro, just as the Z11.

Gene will have the review for the Z7 soon, and I expect it to mirror the Z11 in the dedicated pre-pro department.

Another advantage is that multiple zones can be assigned the unused internal amp power. Try that with a dedicated pre-pro.

Doh!!!

I'm not against using receivers as pre/pro and I think its a grea idea. What I'm arguing about are the blanket statements in this forum that states that AVR beats a dedicated pre/pro every time. This is simply not true.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Nomo - The price on the Anthem would be about $800. I think you are right about paying a premium on a dedicated pre-pro. Honestly I don't think the Yamaha is lacking anything. ...

In that case, if it has all the audio processing that you need, you can only go downhill since an $800 sideway transfer is expensive. If that pre was designed on purpose to be euphonic, then that is a choice you have to make. Otherwise, they will both be transparent, period.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Your documument doesn't open

Opened as I post

 

[Donna Negus]

what is preamp I’m still confused by all this high-tech it does sound very interesting

 

[3db]

what is preamp I’m still confused by all this high-tech it does sound very interesting

The audio cahin works something like this. When you put on a CD, the output of the CD player is connected to the input of a pre-amp. The pre-amp amplifies (increases the signal level) before its passed onto the power amplifier stage. The power amplifier stage takes the signal and amplifies many times so thatit can drive the speakers which are connected to the output of amplifier.

A stereo receiver or Audio Video receiver chasis houses both the pre-amp and the power amp stage plus a tuner (radio). The AVR also houses all the DSP processing as well.

If you remove the tuner and the DSP processing from the chassis, you'll have an integrated amplifier. It contains just the pre-amp and the power amplifier.

Finally, if you seperate the power amplifier and the pre-amp into seperate chassis again, you have a pre/pro and a power amp as seperates. Alot of seperate pre/pros also include the DSP processessing as well.

Hope this explains it a little

 

[3db]

Opened as I post

And you're looking for praise, a doggy biscuit, etc??

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Doh!!!

I'm not against using receivers as pre/pro and I think its a grea idea. What I'm arguing about are the blanket statements in this forum that states that AVR beats a dedicated pre/pro every time. This is simply not true.

As far as I know, there is not a single receiver out there that beats the Denon AVP-A1HDCI pre-pro in any category - specs or real world performance!

I was just saying that some of these receivers beat some of the pre-pros in the specs area only, which I think is a curious thing.

To me the only bad thing about separates is the 100+ pound weights of the amps!!!

 

[zumbo]

Finally, if you seperate the power amplifier and the pre-amp into seperate chassis again, you have a pre/pro and a power amp as seperates. Alot of seperate pre/pros also include the DSP processessing as well.

A pre-amp doesn't process. A pre-amp is used for audio in stereo(l/r).

A pre-pro processes. A pre-pro is used for video, and audio in surround.

A stereo receiver contains a pre-amp, amp, and tuner.

An A/V receiver contains a pre-pro, amp, and tuner.

I know you knew this, but your wording was a little off.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I've been mainly a separates only guy for a long time.

I used 3 class-A analog preamps + amps, instead of a pre-pro or receiver.

Then I used 3 analog integrated amps, instead of a pre-pro or receiver.

Sure, fully balanced I/O are nice, but I was never into that anyway.

Then I examined the receiver market and realized that they are every bit as good as most separate pre-pros and even dedicated analog class-A stereo preamps when it comes to the actual measured specs.

So I think the take-home message here is that just because a component is a dedicated "separate", it does not mean that it is better than a receiver.

You could argue that if you are not using the amps inside the receiver, then it is a waste.

But you could also argue that those unused amps inside the receiver makes excellent backups when your separate amps fail.

 

[zumbo]

Pre-amp.

Pre-pro.

Stereo receiver.

A/V receiver.

Integrated amp.

Stereo amp.

Surround amp.

Tube amp.

 

[MichaelJHuman]

Cheap looking little amp there at the end., What are those glassy looking objects? Who's Macintosh? Don't they make computers or apples or something?

Back in the early days of hi fi, there were only a few boxes -
Pre amplifier - Volume control and source selection
Power amplifier - Amplifies the signal sufficiently to drive speakers
Integrated amplifier - Integrates a pre amp and power amp

Then, they put a tuner into an integrated amp, and called it a receiver.

When surround sound came along, they either added it to receivers or put decoding into an integrated amplifier and called it a pre processor.

They added video handling to receivers and pre processors. The receivers than became known as AV receivers. Pre processors kept the same name, but often added video handling as well.

 

[zumbo]

Cheap looking little amp there at the end., What are those glassy looking objects? Who's Macintosh? Don't they make computers or apples or something?

RRRRRRRRIGHT. Here is one on ebay for $2799.95
http://cgi.ebay.com/McIntosh-MC275-MC-275-Stereo-Tube-Amp-Amplifier-REBUILT_W0QQitemZ350131852585QQcmdZViewItem

When surround sound came along, they either added it to receivers or put decoding into an integrated amplifier and called it a pre processor.

No sir. A pre-pro does not contain an amp. You mean they added it to a pre-amp, and called it a pre-pro.

 

[little wing]

These posts are great, you guys are a wealth of knowledge. I have a short run from pre-amp to amp. I mostly listen to two channel music. Ocassionally I engage one of the surround modes for music: Prologic II, 7 channel stereo, etc. But mostly music. I like football in surround, especially when the game is well miked You can hear the players calling signals on the field, the PA announcer, it's almost like your at the game. But anyway, I was just wondering if a dedicated pre-pro would offer better sound quality. I am just exploring possibilities.

 

[walter duque]

You want to be king of the hill get Lexicon or JBL rebadge
A good Pre-Pro beats AVR anytime.

http://www.lexicon.com/products/overview.asp?ID=19

 

[zumbo]

You want to be king of the hill get Lexicon or JBL rebadge
A good Pre-Pro beats AVR anytime.

http://www.lexicon.com/products/overview.asp?ID=19

Bring evidence. Here, I will help. There is none.

 

[walter duque]

Bring evidence. Here, I will help. There is none.

Zumbo
Are you for real?

 

[3db]

A pre-amp doesn't process. A pre-amp is used for audio in stereo(l/r).

A pre-pro processes. A pre-pro is used for video, and audio in surround.

A stereo receiver contains a pre-amp, amp, and tuner.

An A/V receiver contains a pre-pro, amp, and tuner.

I know you knew this, but your wording was a little off.

Yeah that'll learn me from trying to think and type before my morning coffee. Thanks zumbo

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You want to be king of the hill get Lexicon or JBL rebadge
A good Pre-Pro beats AVR anytime.

http://www.lexicon.com/products/overview.asp?ID=19

I think in terms of "reputation", but certainly not in terms of actual measured specifications.

If you compare the $10,000 Lexicon MC-12 to the Denon 3808 or Onkyo 805/875 or Integra receivers, etc., you will see that these receivers actually have better measurements in the areas of THD, SNR, & Frequency Response. When you compare this $10K Lexicon to the Z11 or AVR-5308, these receivers beat the MC12 in all four areas of THD, SNR, Crosstalk, and Frequency Response.

In addition, the Lexicon doesn't even have decoding for TrueHD, DTS-HD, etc.

However, I bet the built quality for the Lexicon is better than any of these receivers.

So you win some, and you lose some.

I don't think it's fair to just say a good pre-pro beats all receivers in every category.

Now the Denon AVP-A1HDCI pre-pro beats every single receiver in every single category including measured specifications.

But here is the kicker. Every single pre-pro has to go through an amplifier.

And just how good is that amplifier in terms of actual measurements?

You are only as strong as your weakest link.

Let's say your amplifier has THD of 0.05%, SNR of 90dB, Freq Resp of 20 Hz - 20 kHz +/- 0.5dB, & Crosstalk of 70 dB, & 150 WPC @ 8 ohms, which are all pretty good. Then even the AVP-A1HDCI hooked up to this amp won't beat the specs of the AVR-5308 or Z11.

That is what I think.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

i'd look into an emotiva... no sound coloration and great price

I think if you are in the amps-and-preamps-sound-alike camp, then these specs don't mean much since the difference is inaudible by your belief.

But if you believe that all amps and preamps sound differently, then I would assume you must weigh more heavily on specifications.

I mean how can a preamp that has THD 0.05%, SNR -90dB, FR 20Hz-20kHz +/-0.5dB, & Crosstalk of -70dB beat another component that has a THD of 0.004%, SNR -110dB, FR 20Hz-20kHz +/-0.0dB, & Crosstalk -92dB???

That is just not logical.

For speakers, it's different. Acoustics, placement, resonance, etc., play a huge factor.

But electrical components are a lot more logical and simple to predict.

That is what I think.

 

[MichaelJHuman]

RRRRRRRRIGHT. Here is one on ebay for $2799.95
http://cgi.ebay.com/McIntosh-MC275-MC-275-Stereo-Tube-Amp-Amplifier-REBUILT_W0QQitemZ350131852585QQcmdZViewItem




No sir. A pre-pro does not contain an amp. You mean they added it to a pre-amp, and called it a pre-pro.

Sorry, I did not mean to imply a pre pro had amps. I worded that poorly, my fault.

What I meant to say was that they added surround sound decoding to both receivers and pre amps. The pre amps would not of course had amps for the surround sound speakers. I think these new fangled pre amps went by a number of names. The current standard term for a box which performs the functions of a pre amp, audio decoder and possibly a video switcher/processor is a pre processor.

I was of course joking about McIntosh