The Resonance Point is Getting ANNOYING...

T

Theresa

Junior Audioholic
try this

I read this someplace online during the past week. Place a sheet of open celled foam (like what is used on the inside walls of speaker cabinets) on the floor, then a piece of Styrofoam large enough to support the sub on top of that. Place the sub on the Styrofoam.
I'm going to try it but just to increase the height of one of my subs. I haven't had any need for it yet even though my subs go below 20Hz.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
Midrange actually uses more power then bass. the whole bass uses craploads of power is a myth.
 
P

PearlcorderS701

Banned
Anything from SVS would get you deeper bass. Buy the best one you can afford, particularly if you like your bass loud or have a large room.
Thanks.

Would an SVS work well with the RTi12s? Would the ultra low LFE "play nice" with the rolloff from the RTis?

I've heard good things about the PB12 I think it is from SVS...any thoughts?
 
P

PearlcorderS701

Banned
I read this someplace online during the past week. Place a sheet of open celled foam (like what is used on the inside walls of speaker cabinets) on the floor, then a piece of Styrofoam large enough to support the sub on top of that. Place the sub on the Styrofoam.
I'm going to try it but just to increase the height of one of my subs. I haven't had any need for it yet even though my subs go below 20Hz.
Thanks; but I believe I have gotten the loud rattling/resonance issue more under control by pulling the sub off the wall a few more inches, as I discussed in the last page or so of the thread...:D
 
P

PearlcorderS701

Banned
Midrange actually uses more power then bass. the whole bass uses craploads of power is a myth.
I really don't believe that's so when it comes to the "draw" ultra-low bass has compared to midrange -- it's not a myth that a receiver uses more draw and current to feed speakers at full range setups than if they were crossed over to a sub, and this is strictly because of the bass factor.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
think what you like. ever looked at an impedance graph for most any speaker? the impedance drops in the mid-range on almost all of them. as far as an svs sub, i would get one that goes lower then your towers like say to atleast 20hz.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Thanks.

Would an SVS work well with the RTi12s? Would the ultra low LFE "play nice" with the rolloff from the RTis?

I've heard good things about the PB12 I think it is from SVS...any thoughts?
Since you should be setting the main speakers to "small" when using a proper subwoofer, the receiver will diminish the bass to them to give a proper match. This is all assuming that you properly set things up, which many people do not, as they like to exaggerate the bass for their home theater, and then they imagine that the subwoofer does not integrate well with their main speakers for music. That, of course, is because they did not set it up properly, so of course the bass is boomy when they set the subwoofer level too high!

In other words, you will be fine with a subwoofer from SVS, assuming you set it up properly. If you don't set it up properly, anything from anyone can sound like crap.
 
T

Theresa

Junior Audioholic
No, your sub should never be right next to the wall. In general, most speakers should not be close to nearby walls.
I really, really don't think that there is a problem with a sub being in a corner as long as it's not interfering with the port. With non-subs it CAN (but not necessarily) change the imaging characteristics for the worst and any baffle step compensation of the crossover.
Seldom have I seen anything saying to move subs out into the room.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
i would never place a sub next to a side wall or in a corner, it causes cancellations and amplification of whatever room modes are in the room to the extreme. and as far as not being able to locate a sub, personally i CAN localize the position of a sub if it deviates more then a few feet from the front soundstage no matter the crossover frequency, bass isn't discreetly localizable because it radiates spherically but it is to a certain extent.
 
P

PearlcorderS701

Banned
think what you like. ever looked at an impedance graph for most any speaker? the impedance drops in the mid-range on almost all of them. as far as an svs sub, i would get one that goes lower then your towers like say to atleast 20hz.
It's not that I'm "thinking what I want," it's just that it's kind of gospel -- and I'm sure someone could back me up here on this one -- that low-powered AVRs in particular (like the one I'm using now and which is in question) don't fare well with low bass signals and frequencies, as this is known to tax their amps pretty hard; running the RTi12s would demand too much from this AVR, and I've even been advised by Polk's support not to do this with my model. The receiver can power the 12s more than decently, they told me, by crossing over the speakers at say 60Hz, but they didn't recommend running them full range as you suggest with the AVR I own.

Come on, guys -- I know I can't be the only one to have heard the theory regarding low bass frequencies being more taxing than any other kind of signal as it pertains to low powered AVRs and amps...can anyone confirm this for us?

With regard to your SVS suggestion -- I suppose that's what I was asking...which model would dip below what my towers could handle...I'll have to start looking at specs now...thanks.
 
P

PearlcorderS701

Banned
Since you should be setting the main speakers to "small" when using a proper subwoofer, the receiver will diminish the bass to them to give a proper match.
Yes -- I understand this; indeed, I have always run my systems with the mains at a "small" or "crossed over" setting, regardless of their power handling, as it's always recommended to do this to get the strain off the electronics...it's what I was trying to explain to yepimonfire...

With the Onkyos, they used to have a "Small/Large" system with their settings, but now their AVRs use a Full Band/specific crossover you need to set, so I was using a 60Hz frequency cutoff for the 12s as advised by Polk.

This is all assuming that you properly set things up, which many people do not, as they like to exaggerate the bass for their home theater, and then they imagine that the subwoofer does not integrate well with their main speakers for music. That, of course, is because they did not set it up properly, so of course the bass is boomy when they set the subwoofer level too high!
Yes, I understand this as well; I would be doing everything I could to integrate the new sub in with the mains, and could probably still get away with a 60Hz rolloff from the 12s even with a monster SVS...

In other words, you will be fine with a subwoofer from SVS, assuming you set it up properly. If you don't set it up properly, anything from anyone can sound like crap.
I understand. My main concern was whether there was an SVS model out there that would dip way below my towers' range so the new sub could concentrate on ultra-low frequencies -- something my PSW350 isn't doing now...
 
P

PearlcorderS701

Banned
Midrange actually uses more power then bass. the whole bass uses craploads of power is a myth.
Can anyone actually confirm this statement? Is the notion that low bass information uses more electronic power from an amplifier than any other frequency a myth?
 
P

PearlcorderS701

Banned
I really, really don't think that there is a problem with a sub being in a corner as long as it's not interfering with the port. With non-subs it CAN (but not necessarily) change the imaging characteristics for the worst and any baffle step compensation of the crossover.
Seldom have I seen anything saying to move subs out into the room.
Where is this notion of "moving a sub out into the middle of a room" coming from? I think we can all agree that's not even an approachable tactic...
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
It's not that I'm "thinking what I want," it's just that it's kind of gospel -- and I'm sure someone could back me up here on this one -- that low-powered AVRs in particular (like the one I'm using now and which is in question) don't fare well with low bass signals and frequencies, as this is known to tax their amps pretty hard; running the RTi12s would demand too much from this AVR, and I've even been advised by Polk's support not to do this with my model. The receiver can power the 12s more than decently, they told me, by crossing over the speakers at say 60Hz, but they didn't recommend running them full range as you suggest with the AVR I own.

Come on, guys -- I know I can't be the only one to have heard the theory regarding low bass frequencies being more taxing than any other kind of signal as it pertains to low powered AVRs and amps...can anyone confirm this for us?

With regard to your SVS suggestion -- I suppose that's what I was asking...which model would dip below what my towers could handle...I'll have to start looking at specs now...thanks.
You have heard the gospel and we all have but basically it is not true generally.

There is little power in the musical spectrum below 80 Hz.
However for your speakers there is a problem, because Polk broke TLS Guys rule about how low it is reasonable to place a a passive crossover. I have seen the impedance curve and phase angles of your speaker, and yes, those speakers will suck the life out of a receiver like yours.

However the fact is there is not a need for a lot of power in the lower spectrum, it just so happens that some speakers need a lot of power in that region.

It is not just big speakers either. Here is a really good book shelf I have heard and measures very well.



Now look at the impedance and phase curve.



The impedance curve looks pretty benign. Over 6 ohms except for a small region were there is little power demand between 4 and 10 kHz.

Now this is the hard part for members to understand. Look at the phase angles. Its 56 degrees negative at 100 Hz and over 60 degrees negative at 2 kHz.

Now what this causes is not a huge demand for true (actual) power, but a big increase of apparent power over true power in those regions of highly negative phase angles. The problem is that the current has to be provided to meet those apparent power demands. If they can't be met the amp will clip and may be self destruct.

So those little speakers require a much bigger amp than you would think at first glance. You could not drive them with your receiver.

The same goes for its little brother the SCM-7. A tiny speaker that can really fill a room with the right power, but this latter is 6 db down by 60 Hz, so a sub would not help you.



So this issue of were and where power demands are is very complex, and seldom do speaker manufacturers supply enough information for the consumer to make an informed choice, even if he has the knowledge to do so.

So you could have a different set of speakers were the power consumed matches the actual acoustic power required in any given region.

The problem is who's to know without honest manufacturers and or third party measurements, who's to know?
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
ideally moving a sub farther from a wall would sound better as there would be less reinforcement from the walls, this isn't practical and opens up a big can of worms because you have a huge difference in the phase between the sub and the speakers which would actually sound worse. now if you had a way to compensate for that and electronically delay the subwoofers output this wouldn't be an issue, most receivers do have a way to do this but only in 1 foot steps so you would have to be careful as to make sure you have the sub at a distance that is in "feet" rather then 4.5 feet or something like that. practically, i would say minimum 1 foot from any room boundary, and defenitely out of a corner.
 
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