The often recommended AVR-X3500H got measured, finally..

P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
PENG is one of the rare ones to speak clearly.:D
Thanks, but I do find it difficult to explain technical things in simple plain English, especially if it is about something I don't fully understand myself.:D
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Overlord
I am not an EE, but even I know that the difference between 0.05% to 0.02% THD is practically meaningless (in comparison to artifacts produced by speakers and room modes).
All modern DACs perform well enough for my sucky speakers AND (far from golden) ears.
Amir has confirmed that Denon amp (as expected) is rated conservatively at 100wpc and it performs really well within its limits.
That's It. (Forget about SINAD BS)
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Spartan
This morning, I first noticed your response from yesterday's discussion. Here's my delayed answer.
That's not a compelling argument, since the audibility of many measurements, especially for those of electronics, but sometimes even for speakers, may not have a direct relationship to the listening experience. Unless the measurements reveal substantial problems audibility may be questionable. The reason for measurements is to validate that a product meets or exceeds its specifications, or doesn't exhibit anomalous behavior. Some products do exhibit anomalous behavior.
I'll grant you this point despite my surprise that audio electronics manufacturers can still make & sell products that exhibit anomalous behaviors. Their products aren't exactly state-of-the-art or rocket science. It indicates they haven't been adequately tested and validated. Maybe I shouldn't be so naive. But maybe audio electronic makers are cutting way too many corners.
I think you're holding Amir to a higher standard. Gene doesn't correlate electronics measurements to audible behavior either. Measurements, especially raw measurements, are rarely published these days. I appreciate his measurements; the rest is just opinion.
Here's where I can't agree with you. Amir presses my BS alarm buttons. His extreme verbosity and over-complexified presentations suggest to me that he believes he is revealing superior home audio performance. When challenged by Arny Krueger and others, he refused to admit that his efforts don't address the question of improved audible performance.

He could avoid this by simply saying – as you did for him – that his measurements confirm that a product is adequately engineered, and nothing else. He avoids saying that. As a result, I ignore him.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
That's It. (Forget about SINAD BS)
Agreed completely with everything else you mentioned except the SINAD thing. Unless I missed your point, SINAD may confuse people but is not really BS if you consider the fact that most DACs manufacturers now seem to have standardized on specifying THD+N in dB (that is, SINAD) instead of % that they used in the old days.

For example, taken from the data sheet of the AK4458, the DAC chip in the AVR-X3500H:

1574690724621.png


If you do a conversion from dB to %, the AK4458's THD+N would be 0.0004467 and we are happier..

AKM actually used the term/acronym "SINAD" in the datsheet of their older chips, they switched to THD+N probably because they realize fewer people know what the heck SINAD is.

If I remember right someone did say something to Amir about why the use of SINAD and his response was, he always provided both anyway so for those who prefer "%", just ignore the "dB".

I assume he may not realize that the two figures, one right on top of the other, could still confuse people because people are much more used to seeing THD+N in % and now when they see both listed they would think those were two different specs. Also, while most people know 1 kg is 2.205 lbs but much most people don't know -107 dB is 0.0004467%

Also worth noting, he did not do his measurements of the pre out in pure direct and I am not sure if he turned ECO off. He said he did a reset first, but then ECO might have been default to "auto" anyway. I am not sure if ECO would influence the measured distortions but I am quite sure he's wrong about the analog input did not go through ADC in stereo mode. To me, analog input in stereo mode would cause it to be routed to the not very good ADC chip in Denon/Marantz receivers. Regardless, we both know and agreed that 0.02% THD+N at 2.0 V is hardly as bad as the way he described it "tons of distortion...etc.etc." 2.0 V = almost 400 W into 8 ohms for a 29 dB gain power amp, not bad at all, and according the measurements Gene received from Denon, the X3600H is capable of 4.25 Vrms at clipping.


1574690541840.png
 
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BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Overlord
Agreed completely with everything else you mentioned except the SINAD thing. Unless I missed your point, SINAD may confuse people but is not really BS if you consider the fact that most DACs manufacturers now seem to have standardized on specifying THD+N in dB (that is, SINAD) instead of % that they used in the old days.

For example, taken from the data sheet of the AK4458, the DAC chip in the AVR-X3500H:

View attachment 32407

If you do a conversion from dB to %, the AK4458's THD+N would be 0.0004467 and we are happier..

AKM actually used the term/acronym "SINAD" in the datsheet of their older chips, they switched to THD+N probably because they realize fewer people know what the heck SINAD is.

If I remember right someone did say something to me about the use of SINAD and his response is, he always provide both anyway so for those who prefer "%", just ignore the "dB".

I assume he may not realize that the two figures, one right on top of the other, could still confuse people because people are much more used to seeing THD+N in % and now when they see both listed they would think those were two different specs. Also, while most people know 1 kg is 2.205 lbs but much most people don't know -107 dB is 0.0004467%

Also worth noting, he did not do his measurements of the pre out in pure direct and I am not sure if he turned ECO off. He said he did a reset first, but then ECO might have been default to "auto" anyway. I am not sure if ECO would influence the measured distortions but I am quite sure he's wrong about the analog input did not go through ADC in stereo mode. To me, analog input in stereo mode would cause it to be routed to the not very good ADC chip in Denon/Marantz receivers. Regardless, we both know and agreed that 0.02% THD+N at 2.0 V is hardly as bad as the way he described it "tons of distortion...etc.etc." 2.0 V = almost 400 W into 8 ohms for a 29 dB gain power amp, not bad at all, and according the measurements Gene received from Denon, the X3600H is capable of 4.25 Vrms at clipping.


View attachment 32406
Thank you @PENG for your (per usual) highly informative post. Could ELI5 (explain to me like I'm 5 years old) what is the significance of comparing two AVRs with Sinad of 73db and 80db
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Spartan
Unless I missed your point, SINAD may confuse people but is not really BS if you consider the fact that most DACs manufacturers now seem to have standardized on specifying THD+N in dB (that is, SINAD) instead of % that they used in the old days.
Thanks Peng for that simple but valuable explanation.

Expressing distortion in dB instead of % of total is worthwhile. I can readily understand its value, but its hardly worth a new acronym, such as SINAD.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
He just reviewed a 5X110 W power amp, even he had to admit that it wasn't better than some AVR.


So @AcuDefTechGuy

Below are your favorite numbers so no translations needed right?;)
and before you asked, no there are not "A weighted".

1574694069648.png
1574694164786.png
;)

The 105 W rated AVR compares favorable with the 110 W rated power amp, interesting, in terms of AVR vs separates at least in this case.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
So he measures Unweighted SNR at 5W and Near Max Output. Does this extrapolates to “1W” and “Max Output”.

Why can’t he measure SNR at 1W, instead of 5W?

We know at this stage in our lives that these numbers are mostly academic.

Nothing wrong talking about these numbers, but again, he needs to be more consistent and “standardize“ his numbers for everything he measures.

Is it feasible for him to do these:

1. SNR Unweighted and A-Weighted at 1W and Max Power 20Hz-20kHz
2. THD at 2V 20Hz-20kHz
3. Crosstalk 20Hz-20kHz
4. FR 20Hz-20kHz
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Expressing distortion in dB instead of % of total is worthwhile. I can readily understand its value, but its hardly worth a new acronym, such as SINAD.
SINAD includes noise and distortion, so it does deserve an acronym as much as THD does.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
So he measures Unweighted SNR at 5W and Near Max Output. Does this extrapolates to “1W” and “Max Output”.

Why can’t he measure SNR at 1W, instead of 5W?

We know at this stage in our lives that these numbers are mostly academic.

Nothing wrong talking about these numbers, but again, he needs to be more consistent and “standardize“ his numbers for everything he measures.

Is it feasible for him to do these:

1. SNR Unweighted and A-Weighted at 1W and Max Power 20Hz-20kHz
2. THD at 2V 20Hz-20kHz
3. Crosstalk 20Hz-20kHz
4. FR 20Hz-20kHz
Send him a PM and ask him. Amir frequently accommodates special measurement requests or suggestions for improvement in his measurements. Just be prepared to answer why. Personally, I would like 1W and 5W. 5W is a very interesting power level for many listeners too. Perhaps I'll suggest it.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
SINAD includes noise and distortion, so it does deserve an acronym as much as THD does.
Agreed if we must use a single acronym, but can't we consider THD+N as a single too or just pretend it is?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
Send him a PM and ask him. Amir frequently accommodates special measurement requests or suggestions for improvement in his measurements. Just be prepared to answer why. Personally, I would like 1W and 5W. 5W is a very interesting power level for many listeners too. Perhaps I'll suggest it.
Good idea, or I can just send our friend here a conversion table.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Agreed if we must use a single acronym, but can't we consider THD+N as a single too or just pretend it is?
We can. Isn't THD+N just the reciprocal of SINAD? I'm not sure I understand the consternation around SINAD.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Samurai
Personally, I prefer the expression THD+N as that designation is already used by several manufacturers in their published specs. SINAD seems to attach more importance to the SNR than the THD but most of the time, one would complain more about distortion than the noise floor.
My 2 cents!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
We can. Isn't THD+N just the reciprocal of SINAD? I'm not sure I understand the consternation around SINAD.
Yes, but SINAD is always expressed in dB whereas THD+N are often in dB or %. If THD+N is given in dB such as in many DAC data sheets, then they will be exactly the same except it would a -ve number, e.g. - 100 dB or 0.001%. SINAD will, being the reciprocal, be + 100 dB, obviously the + sign is typically omitted.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Yes, but SINAD is always expressed in dB whereas THD+N are often in dB or %. If THD+N is given in dB such as in many DAC data sheets, then they will be exactly the same except it would a -ve number, e.g. - 100 dB or 0.001%. SINAD will, being the reciprocal, be + 100 dB, obviously the + sign is typically omitted.
Perhaps that's why I like it better. I like results expressed in db better than percentages.
 

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