The nature of flat panel LCD defects

[MDS]

If you read and/or participate in AV forums you come across a lot of complaints about defects with various TVs and the names people have assigned to them to describe the problem - like clouding, banding, blobs, red/blue/green push, etc.

I've never been able to see any of these so-called defects in the store but now that I have one in my home I think I have a bit more insight. I've had my Toshiba 52LX177 for a full day now and have done nothing but watch various programs in SD and HD, DVDs, and even played a simple little hand-held game on the TV.

- 'Clouding': In some instances, when the screen goes completely black/gray for a second between scenes or if you shut the cable box off while the TV is still on, you can see small light colored areas in the upper corners of the set where the background is not completely solid black or gray.

My conclusion: non-issue. It is absolutely not visible during any normal viewing of anything - even very dark scenes. If this represents 'clouding', I can live with it.

- 'Green push': A few complaints about green push with the Toshiba. I thought I saw a tinge of green in Alton Brown's hair on a food network program and I definitely saw green in Rambo's hair when I watched Rambo yesterday. The Rambo scene is the one near the end when he is flying the helicopter with the rescued POWs.

The catch is that his head is right next to the instrument panel which has that lime green screen like an oscilloscope. Now it could very well be that the processor has a tough time distinguishing between the light cast from the instrument panel and the black hair on the top of his head as being two distinct objects and the green shadow bleeds into the black hair. However, it was only a few seconds and I really couldn't tell if it was supposed to be like that or not; either way I didn't feel like it was big deal. I watched various programs all night until 6 am and that is the ONLY instance where there might possibly be green push. Another non-issue in my book.

- 'Banding' or 'Blobs': None that I have noticed in any scene.

So I think there will always be little things that make a set less than perfect but unless you get one that has a very pronounced and obvious issue that ruins the image completely, I think we can just take these issues with a grain of salt as nothing is perfect at this point.

Feature and picture quality wise I am quite satisfied so far. My only issue is whether I could have gotten away with a 46" instead of 52" at 11-12' viewing distance. HD channels look perfect but some SD channels are very slightly blurry (especially with moving text on screen) and a smaller screen may mask that a bit. Of course it could just be may ageing eyes...

 

[Davemcc]

My 26" Samsung had a vertical line running from top to bottom of the screen right where the edge of an SD image would be. This line was present any time widescreen was used and was disturbing when watching DVD. At first I thought it was burn in, but Samsung called it something like pixel memory, where the pixels get frozen on a certain color. They replaced the TV under warranty.

 

[Alex2507]

I too had an issue with a line right where the SD border appears that was dealt with with a warranty return. Now another year has gone by and the line is back and the warranty is over so I'm sort of doing my homework regarding displays. The line is only visible durring certain scenes and not very bothersome at all so I have time to figure this out.

MDS, I am curious why you chose the Tosh over Sharp and the price you paid vs what a similar Sharp would go for. Also you obviously chose LCD over the Panny Plasma and I'm wondering what the reasons are.

BTW I don't have any real regrets having bought a 2nd tier LCD as it got me into HD LCD a couple of years ago and the prices for top tier have come down the $900 I spent on it and the quality has hopefully gone up.

 

[MDS]

It was a toss-up between the Toshiba and the Sharp and they both looked very good to me in the stores.

I basically chose Toshiba for a few reasons:
- I've owned at least 3 Toshiba TVs and they all worked reliably right up until the day I gave them away. I didn't even have to reprogram my remote because the power code is apparently the same as it's always been.

- The Tosh LX177 has umpteen user controls and an RJ-45 jack on the back for viewing JPG or listening to MP3. I'd probably rarely use it for that purpose but you can also update the firmware directly if the TV is connected to the internet.

- The Tosh can be ISF calibrated and I may decide to do that. The Sharp cannot although I read an article recently where Sharp said they will provide access to the service menu for upcoming 2008 models so it could be ISF calibrated.

I bought from Crutchfield and paid $3200. The price is now down to $3000 and I can get a refund for the difference. The Sharp D82U is also $3K at Crutchfield but a local store in my area is selling it for $2800.

By the way, the minor hint of 'clouding' I had seen before is now completely gone and the only time I see green in hair or faces is when a person is right next to a flourescent green light and for all I know that is normal.

 

[mtrycrafts]

By the way, the minor hint of 'clouding' I had seen before is now completely gone and the only time I see green in hair or faces is when a person is right next to a flourescent green light and for all I know that is normal.

If you have that green after proper calibration, then it would be easy to compare that frame on another TV? It may be a reflection as you surmised might be on the original material.

 

[gus6464]

MDS,

Easiest way to check and see if your TV has a green push problem is to watch Superman Returns on the first scenes with the dying woman talking to Lex Luther in the dark bedroom. On my HL167 it showed the entire scene with green all over the place where it was supposed to be dark gray.

Another way to tell is to just show a black screen with the TV turned on and to look at the screen from a very off angle position. If you have some green you will notice green clouds in certain areas.

I didn't start noticing these things after a while with the Toshiba and now I am kinda glad it broke and went with the Panny Plasma. After getting the plasma set up I also noticed other places where the Toshiba was pushing green with the blast factor PS3 wallpaper on the XMB. On the bottom right corner the Toshiba was showing a green background and after hooking up the Panasonic there isn't any green whatsoever to be found in that area.

 

[MDS]

I'll try to find Superman Returns and check for green push.

I've seen excessive green in three instances now but really am not sure that it is incorrect:

1. Rambo as stated above.
2. Fantastic Four in the diner that has green seats and a green LED light around the window.
3. Def Leppard video of Bringin' on the Heartbreak. Again it had a green LED light behind Joe Elliot.

It seems if there is a source of bright chartreuse kind of green like the screen of an oscilloscope it bleeds onto nearby faces and hair but again I'm not entirely sure that shouldn't be the case as I at least would expect some degree of shadow from the light in the scene to illuminate the face or hair of a person nearby. So far I have yet to see green in blacks or any overall green cast anywhere unless there is a green light nearby in the scene.

I'm now more concerned with the 52". I know we've been through this a million times but I just have to wonder if 46" would show less grain and softness for SD being slightly smaller (at 11' viewing distance). SD basically sucks if it is an old source like '80s videos on VH1. SD movies on HBO or Cinemax get converted to 1080i by the cable box and they don't look too bad at all.

 

[Alex2507]

What is ISF? Thanks for raising the size issue. My viewing distance is 9' so I know to go with 46' max. I assume the reasons to choose the Tosh over the Sharp apply to choosing the Tosh over the Panny?

There must be some reason that you didn't buy from a place like this:
http://www.yourdigitalelectronics.net/product_info.php?products_id=2497

Thanks for the info. It's a real short cut for me.

 

[Audioholics]

I am completing a review of a Toshiba Regza LCD now and the bottom line is that I have seen better and it does indeed show clouding around the extreme edges (if that's what peoiple like to call it) during dark scenes. Their 120Hz technology also doesn't seem to be very effective at actual moving images and creates additional artifacts to the picture.

 

[MDS]

I am completing a review of a Toshiba Regza LCD now and the bottom line is that I have seen better and it does indeed show clouding around the extreme edges (if that's what peoiple like to call it) during dark scenes. Their 120Hz technology also doesn't seem to be very effective at actual moving images and creates additional artifacts to the picture.

My clouding seems to have disappeared completely. Maybe it has something to do with the panel acclimating to the environment?

So, which LCDs would you consider to be better? I'm seeing more instances of green now and I wonder if I should exchange it for the Sharp D82U that was originally my first choice. I worry that I'd just be trading one problem for another though with the potential for banding with the Sharp, although I have never seen it even standing 1 foot away from one at Sears.

 

[mouettus]

The Bravia V2500 line from Sony is now around these prices. Also, Sharp is very liked here. Didn't see a big difference though. To me, what's more important is the black levels. I'm always distracted when the blacks are washed out (gray). I should've bought the XBR4 instead but the price was jaw-dropping at the time I bought mine :S

 

[zumbo]

I am completing a review of a Toshiba Regza LCD now and the bottom line is that I have seen better and it does indeed show clouding around the extreme edges (if that's what peoiple like to call it) during dark scenes. Their 120Hz technology also doesn't seem to be very effective at actual moving images and creates additional artifacts to the picture.

The review does seem like it will be a little disappointing. Since my current TV died, I jumped on a Black Friday deal that seemed to be a superb value. I paid $999.97 for a Toshiba 42" REGZA 1080p LCD(42HL167). At this price, I am not expecting it to be the best.

What is your honest opinion of the price/performance for the $$?

 

[gus6464]

You guys should also take a look at the new Mitsubishi LCDs (133, 134, 144, 244). I saw them at Fry's when they first got them and they are top notch. Very accurate color and decent blacks. Before checking out the 134 model the Sony W3000 was my favorite mid range LCD. If I was shopping for an LCD now I would definitely get the Mitsubishi. And the high end 244 easily competes with the XBR4/5. Would take any of them over the Samsung 61/65/71/81s.

 

[your_doc_2]

Well, here's what I have notice with all of the current technologies available. There is a give and take with switch ever one you choose. LCD's are at the point to where I will be purchasing one in the next few months. The 120 Hz models make sports and gaming look great. Yes, you give up some black level definition. Phasmas have the best blacks but still not as deep as CRTs.So in my opinion, it comes down to what and how you watch as to the which is best. I own a Sony 50" SXRD now that I love. Have it in my family room. Great picture in all light conditions.

 

[your_doc_2]

ISF is for the Imaging Science Foundation. Pretty much considered the authority on viewing standards and calibration for all display devices.