The most newbie-ish question ever asked of Audioholics! Pre-pro amps?

R

reaunt

Audiophyte
As of several hours ago, I was content in my little world where I thought I understood what I needed to get my audio setup working propperly with my HT. I own speakers, I have a plan as to which DVD player I want to buy, I have my HDTV, and I'm down to debating between two models of receiver. At the time, due to cost constraints, I had actually even made my decision on the reciever- but I recently found some more funding for my project, and so decided to do some research into Pioneer Ellite model receivers rather then the standard units.

When browsing the forum at AVSforums.com, I started to notice a curiously large amount of threads that all talked about "what amp they should use with ____ <name of receiver>". To my horror, I realized that these people were buying expensive receivers like the Pioneer Elite VSX-56TXi, and then were ADDING an amp to the setup for their speakers.

I don't understand!!! Isn't that what the receiver is supposed to be doing in the first place? Tweeter never tried to sell me anything for my setup aside from the unit itself- so I haven't even heard the retailer gimic for why people would need an amp.

Can someone explain to me why these people need another amp, and tell me if I need one? At the moment, all I want to run is a nice little 5.1 set- built from 2 Mirage OMNI 250's, 2 Mirage OMNI 50's, an undecided SVS/HSU sub, and a Mirage OMNI CC.

SO confused!!!

~Sam
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
An amp usually has more power. You can use an A/V receiver for a pre/pro at a fraction of the cost of an A/V pre-pro. Some people buy a 2-channel amp to power the mains, and use the receiver power for the rest. The is the most cost effective way to get good power to the mains. And, it frees up stress from the receiver. I am not very technical, but this should give you an idea. I use a Yamaha rx-v1400 with an Adcom 7605. It is 5-channel. I caught it on sale.

Also, I have 4ohm speakers with an efficiency of 87dB. This is quiet a load for a mid-fi receiver. But, if you study, you will see most hi-fi amps can handle this load with ease. So you save money on the receiver with all the goodies for H/T, and add an amp for peak performance! :)
 
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S

sjdgpt

Senior Audioholic
There is no single best answer for using a separate amp with a receiver.

There is one group that argues for the improved power output of a separate amp. Amps are generally more powerful than a receiver, but a near flagship model of receiver from Denon, Yamaha, HK, NAD, Rotel, Pioneer etc will generally be rated at 75 to 100 wpc, with most separate amps having 100 to 200 wpc... a slight 3 or 4 db increase in sound volume, so the separate amp is not an absolute improvement.

As a note, not all receivers can produce their rated power "all channels driven", yet how much power is really needed for the surround channels? Thus the idea of using a less powerful receiver (40 or 50 wpc) for the surrounds with a large amp for the main speakers.

There is another group that argues the noise floor (background noise of the unit) is lowered with separate amps. That argument is negated by the fact that modern receivers are actually well designed and very quite {hence the desire to use the receiver as a preamp}, and the additional cables, and RCA connections could add to the noise floor.

Because the quality of receivers has improved, purchasing a very high quality amp may be a good idea, and then, as technology evolves, purchasing an inexpensive receiver every few years to keep up with the changes may be a very cost effective idea.


The argument against separates has been stated by the Audioholics editors, who have been promoting the ideat that a well designed flag ship or near flag ship receiver is a viable platform for HT, with sufficient power and features to negate the need for separates.

Then again, remember the old adage, the boy with the most toys wins.
 
N

Nick250

Audioholic Samurai
reaunt said:
I don't understand!!! Isn't that what the receiver is supposed to be doing in the first place? Tweeter never tried to sell me anything for my setup aside from the unit itself- so I haven't even heard the retailer gimic for why people would need an amp.

Can someone explain to me why these people need another amp, and tell me if I need one? At the moment, all I want to run is a nice little 5.1 set- built from 2 Mirage OMNI 250's, 2 Mirage OMNI 50's, an undecided SVS/HSU sub, and a Mirage OMNI CC.

SO confused!!!

~Sam
You will be fine with a decent mid level receiver. There will no audible difference if you add an amp. This is just more of the "mine is bigger than yours syndrome." You can buy a car that goes 160 MPH. For one quarter the cost of the 160 MPH car you can get one that goes 130 MPH and the 130 MPH car will be more comfortable to drive and use. You are never going to tax the limits of either car. Same deal with adding amps to receivers. Only under some very limited conditions will you ever need the capabilities the amp. Hugh room and/or very inefficient speakers would be one of them. IMHO, YMMV,yadda, yadda.
 
Rob Babcock

Rob Babcock

Moderator
I agree- don't sweat adding external amps. Will a stack of big outboard amps outperform a reciever? Yeah, generally. But only if you need the extra power. Given your room dimensions and layout you won't need to worry 'bout it.

But[/I,] if you choose a receiver with preamp outputs, more's the better. This will let you add amps later should you need the extra power. There's always gonna be some widget out there that's a step up. It's nice to have the bells and whistles, but if you start out with a solid funtional model you'll be fine.
 
Mudcat

Mudcat

Senior Audioholic
reaunt said:
When browsing the forum at AVSforums.com, I started to notice a curiously large amount of threads that all talked about "what amp they should use with ____ <name of receiver>". To my horror, I realized that these people were buying expensive receivers like the Pioneer Elite VSX-56TXi, and then were ADDING an amp to the setup for their speakers.

I don't understand!!! Isn't that what the receiver is supposed to be doing in the first place? Tweeter never tried to sell me anything for my setup aside from the unit itself- so I haven't even heard the retailer gimic for why people would need an amp.

Can someone explain to me why these people need another amp, and tell me if I need one? At the moment, all I want to run is a nice little 5.1 set- built from 2 Mirage OMNI 250's, 2 Mirage OMNI 50's, an undecided SVS/HSU sub, and a Mirage OMNI CC.

SO confused!!!

~Sam
First off, kudos to the folks at Tweeter who did not try and get you to give up more cash.

Secondly, my system:http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2380


As you can see, I'm running a Yamaha RX-V1400, but with a $#!+ Load of amps. I had the amps before getting into HT. The Alesis amps are great, quiet, almost audiophile specs, and most importantly - inexpensive. The units I have do not put out gobs of power - actually it may be less than I can get from the Yamaha all channels driven. But they are also more efficient and everything runs cool - I also have several ultra quiet 12 VDC fans providing the cooling.

Anyway, you do not need additional amps, especially if you're not going to try and blow out any windows. Just thought you would like to see something pushing the extreme quantity envelope.
 
3

3beanlimit

Junior Audioholic
I'd also like to chime in that quite possibly, some are using the receiver for HT and a separate amp for 2 channel music.

You could use a tube, or a myriad of very high power, low distortion amps on the market.

Some would put more emphasis on this than HT and can't afford to do both a stereo room and a home theater room.

I'm not sure buying a high end receiver over a used pre/pro and an amp wouldn't be a better way to go, but given the complexity of HT pre/pro and high end receivers, I'd also say that there are a very large group of people out there who have never heard of some of the companies putting out pre/pros, vs the large volume companies that are in force in the market. As such, it's also quite possible, that for a lot of people, it's simply a matter of buying a brand they've heard of and trust.

One more thought....It's also possible that it's just a progression for some. They can afford a decient receiver right now but the cost of seperates is too much. Add a high end amp now, and a pre/pro later.

Just some ramblings..
 
HowY

HowY

Audioholic Intern
I'm sold on seperate amps.

5 and 7 channel versions... stable to low impedance
very clean power.

There is something to be said about big horsepower
which helps to just provide the ooomphhh needed to
pass grandpa on the narrow two lane road even though
the 500 some odd horses are really never fully "used"

Some perspective:
No HT offering can truly produce 100w x 7 channels

Dont NEED the top end hardware cus' the money is
in the amplification on the recv'r not the DAC's

(Which is why you get "thought you guys were audiophiles"
types of post since many have seperate amping and cheaper
HT recievers.... smart move!)

My system at the 'center is 100 percent cooler since it's
not powering the speakers! best improvement since I have
little choice but to stack the Recv'r & dvd player at the TV.

No need to think narrowly.... Had the rears powered by the
Recv'r and used the spare channels to power other ZONES
in the house...

but the real deal comes in the size of the room, many
recv'rs can easily power mid-sized rooms with ease

It changes how you look at recievers though, since power
is no longer a focus it's I/O and DAC's ... dsp options
much of the same offerings in flagship models are
offered in the bottom line hardware with 40 or 60
watt output... and 40 or 60 % less cabbage $$$$
 
F

flyv65

Full Audioholic
Get yourself a nice AV reciever (like the Yamaha 2500 or Denon 3805), a decent DVD player, and don't worry about and amp yet. Next, pick your speakers for whatever system you want (5.1, 6.1 or 7.1) and get everything hooked up and calibrated. Live with yuor setup for a few months or so, trying the different DSPs, diddling with speaker placement, and room acoustics as much as possible (good taste permitting). If you've purchased bookshelf speakers, or moderately efficient speakers you can put your feet up and enjoy the HT experience. If, on the other hand, you picked up a pair of good sized floorstanders for the front (with smaller speakers for the back)you may want to pick up a 2-channel amp to drive them and run the surrounds off the AVR. The most noticeable difference (to me) about amping the bigger speakers is not that they play louder ('though they do), but that at lower volumes the music and sound is much more understandable, clear and crisp. I think it's really easy to hear on bass and midbass (there is alot more punch), but you'll pick it up on the higher stuff as well.

The only thing I can compare it to is when you sit down to listen to music and you keep bumping up the volume until the music sort of "opens up", and fills the room. With an amp that happens at lower volumes.

Bryan...at least with my gear...
 
reaunt said:
When browsing the forum at AVSforums.com, I started to notice a curiously large amount of threads that all talked about "what amp they should use with ____ <name of receiver>". To my horror, I realized that these people were buying expensive receivers like the Pioneer Elite VSX-56TXi, and then were ADDING an amp to the setup for their speakers.
Dang - you were perfectly happy and then got "ruined" by reading what other people think. Ignorance is bliss my friend! :) Welcome to home theater upgraditis.
 
R

reaunt

Audiophyte
That certainly got a chuckle out of me, hawke.

Right now, I think I've got it figured out... at least enough to fake it. If I buy a Pioneer Elite VSX-52tx- will that'll be enough to comfortably accomodate my Mirage OMNI 250's/OMNI 50's/OMNI CC/SVS PB12-ISD subwoofer? I was told 'yes' by the guy at Tweeter- but I've also heard some really BS things from them about TV's when I was in there shopping for my Sony LCD.

In case, for some strange reason, it matters- I'm also planning to buy a Denon DVD-2900 for this setup.

In terms of wattage and needed to add other amps- is it going to be a question of 'add more if you WANT more power', or 'you've got to add more to make sure your speakers aren't underpowered'?

Yes, I'm also aware that asking on an 'audioHOLICS' forum probably isn't the best idea, if i'm looking for the easiest or cheapest solution (;))... but in looking at your systems- I have a feeling that eventually I'll want to upgrade. And the way I look at it, there's no better way to start my HT audio experience then with the advice of people who have "been there, done that" when it comes to upgrading- hoping they can help steer me away from making the same mistakes they might have made as a newbie to the area.

Thanks for all the input so far- I'd love any more you have... but i'd especially like the 'yay' or 'nay' nod in terms of "will what I have planned work?".

~Sam
 
crashguy

crashguy

Audioholic
Why do people think they "need" an external amp to add on to a perfectly good receiver??? Ever look at the NAME of the website you are on??

They (we) have an addiction :D .
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
It has plenty of power. And, it has 8 audio pre-outs. You will get plenty of function from that little puppy. And it will drive those speakers with ease. If you don't mind me asking, how much can you get one for?
 
R

reaunt

Audiophyte
Zumbo- I can't thank you enough for that answer :)

I've got a deal locked down at my local Tweeter for one at $580 + tax (NIB w/ 5 year warrenty). I'm almost positive i'll go that route- but my other alternative is a $505 unit (online, only implied warrenty as I don't think it's an auth dealer).

If anyone else knows a better offer, by all means let me know- and I can track down that link for anyone who wants it... but I didn't do anything special to find the online offer (i think just a pricewatch or froogle search).

~Sam
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
Local. 580. Uhhhhh, looks like a good deal! And, you can add amps as needed! :eek:
 
S

sCiEnT

Junior Audioholic
hawke said:
Dang - you were perfectly happy and then got "ruined" by reading what other people think. Ignorance is bliss my friend! :) Welcome to home theater upgraditis.
rotfl as a fairly new member with my first serious home theater, I totally agree hawke. But am loving it! :D
 
H

happy540i

Junior Audioholic
Adding external amps to your receiver is one way of upgrading your HT. In my case for example, the main speakers are biamped using an external processor and amp. But, I still use the internal amps of the receiver for surround.
 
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