The Ellis Family Go Big or go home Home Theater

[ellisr63]

Pictures!!!

The preamp won't be in until sometime next week. I also just ordered a Oppo 105D, and Minidsp DDRC-88a (this eliminated all my HDMI/analog connection problems). The Oppo should be here in the next day or two, and the MiniDSP is backordered (expected arrival end of the month). I will post pics as i get the pieces.

 

[fuzz092888]

The preamp won't be in until sometime next week. I also just ordered a Oppo 105D, and Minidsp DDRC-88a (this eliminated all my HDMI/analog connection problems). The Oppo should be here in the next day or two, and the MiniDSP is backordered (expected arrival end of the month). I will post pics as i get the pieces.

Why the 105D? With the analog issues that have plagued that model you lose a big chunk of why you would spend the extra on it in the first place IMO, if you'll only be running HDMI through it than a less expensive BD player would perform equally as well, and Darbee is meh IMO (although that may change when I have it hooked up to my PJ).

Full disclosure, I've owned a 95 and own a 103D, but have owned several Panasonic and currently also a Sony BD player. Via HDMI, I can't tell a bit of difference and if you're not going to use it as a separate pre-amp and take advantage of the DAC, then there's an argument for a cheaper player. If, however, you're buying for the build quality and CS, then I get it. Although, again, if you're not making use of the DAC's in the 105D I would opt for the 103D. If you are buying for the DAC's in the 105D, I would head over to AVS and read up on the issues that accompany the 105D.

 

[ellisr63]

Why the 105D? With the analog issues that have plagued that model you lose a big chunk of why you would spend the extra on it in the first place IMO, if you'll only be running HDMI through it than a less expensive BD player would perform equally as well, and Darbee is meh IMO (although that may change when I have it hooked up to my PJ).

Full disclosure, I've owned a 95 and own a 103D, but have owned several Panasonic and currently also a Sony BD player. Via HDMI, I can't tell a bit of difference and if you're not going to use it as a separate pre-amp and take advantage of the DAC, then there's an argument for a cheaper player. If, however, you're buying for the build quality and CS, then I get it. Although, again, if you're not making use of the DAC's in the 105D I would opt for the 103D. If you are buying for the DAC's in the 105D, I would head over to AVS and read up on the issues that accompany the 105D.

Thanks for the comments.

I picked up the 105D for these reasons...
1: I love the Darbee on our 185" scope screen, and this will now be built in so I can sell mine.
2: I purchased a B stock with a 2 year warranty for just a little over $1k.
3: I will be using the balanced outs to the Krell as well as the 7.1 outputs (until I decide if i like it as a transport or a preamp/transport).
4: I needed a HDMI input so i could avoid getting a HDMI to 7.1 box of a lower quality.
5: If I like it as a stand alone preamp I will sell the Krell, and run the outputs directly to a MiniDSP DDRC 88A.
6: The build quality is also a plus.
7: The DACs will be used through the 7.1 outputs won't they?

 

[fuzz092888]

The issue is specifically with the analog out subwoofer channel. Oppo did not adequately compensate for redirected bass + the LFE channel and when you get 7 channels of redirected bass + LFE it clips pretty badly.

EDIT: In some situations where the LFE channel is running full boar, even a single channel of redirected bass will cause the clipping. If using the analog outs, it is recommended you set all speakers to large and let the receiver handle the crossover.

Basically what the below two links say is that when using the onboard bass management settings, if you redirect any of the 5-7 channels to the sub channel, there's a better than average chance that the resulting waveform will clip. IMO, this is completely unacceptable in a BD player that A) costs this much and B) touts their analog section as such a big selling point. I experienced this myself with the 103D using the analog outs.

YMMV

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/270944-oppo-bdp-105-sends-clipped-signal-sub-out-movies-strong-re-directed-bass.html

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/149-blu-ray-players/1461702-disappointed-oppo-bd-105-a-5.html#post32409626

 

[ellisr63]

Last night a friend of mine, and I listened to the new setup and we were very surprised as to what a difference it made.

Audio:
Top end is more extended, and more info present then before. Lows are even tighter than before...maybe just as touch less powerful. Dynamics are much better.

Video:
The colors pop more now, Black levels look better, and the picture appeared to be sharper too.

The demo was done through HDMI which means we are not using the DACs from the 105D. We also are not using the built in Darbee yet as I still have my old one. Looks like I will be selling the Darbee, and going to the built in one.

 

[ellisr63]

I decided to return the Oppo 105D, and get the Oppo 103. So far it is as good as the 105D was. I am also adding some new gear to the mix this next week...

I am adding the MiniDSP DDRC-88A, 2 more Yamaha P2500s amps for the surrounds, and 2 Yamaha P2075 amps for the horns. I am going to get rid of the Denon, and the T-chip amps.

 

[ellisr63]

Just ordered a Yamaha MX-A5000 amp to replace the Lexicon, Sherbourn, and the Yamaha XM 4080 amps. This should get me some room in the rack again. I also now have JBL 8340As for side surrounds, and JBL 8320s for Atmos channels (when I get a new AVP).

 

[andyblackcat]

Great so now what you roughly hear/feel on the 8340/8340 shouldn't be too far off with what I hear/feel here with my 8330mkII.

Best keep the 8340 as matched for overhead so tonal timber balance of the frequency is the but the 8320 should come in very close with a little manual 1/3 EQ.

You really do need at least a good 3 8340 per side wall spaced out to create the defused refocused "surround" a pair or one each sidewall to my trained ears just won't cut it. which is why I got as many as I can get my hands on.

Get another pair 8340 cheaply if you can? But the 8330 are great and often sell ultra cheap on eBaY and maybe be a bit heavier to put up as the plastic boxes have reduced weight.

Get the pictures up when you get the 8340/8320.

Place the first set of 8340 behind any second row seating! At equal height and maybe a little lower down so they are not too close to the ceiling but with mine I had little choice of options due to 7'8" ceiling, otherwise when fitted x3 per sidewall will give impression of HEIGHT SURROUND.

Reason for placing first set of 8340 behind any back row seating is so that back row gets impression of "its behind you" if placed too forwards it will sound like its beside you.

Once you fit a second row in and play an "all-channel pink noise" only on the sidewall surround, you'll grasp the idea. keep the second row a few inches behind any front row seating.

Place a third row so its a in front and at roughly same spacing distance and once all x6 are set up the sound of surround will wrap around the seating, just like the cinema.

 

[ellisr63]

Great so now what you roughly hear/feel on the 8340/8340 shouldn't be too far off with what I hear/feel here with my 8330mkII.

Best keep the 8340 as matched for overhead so tonal timber balance of the frequency is the but the 8320 should come in very close with a little manual 1/3 EQ.

You really do need at least a good 3 8340 per side wall spaced out to create the defused refocused "surround" a pair or one each sidewall to my trained ears just won't cut it. which is why I got as many as I can get my hands on.

Get another pair 8340 cheaply if you can? But the 8330 are great and often sell ultra cheap on eBaY and maybe be a bit heavier to put up as the plastic boxes have reduced weight.

Get the pictures up when you get the 8340/8320.

Place the first set of 8340 behind any second row seating! At equal height and maybe a little lower down so they are not too close to the ceiling but with mine I had little choice of options due to 7'8" ceiling, otherwise when fitted x3 per sidewall will give impression of HEIGHT SURROUND.

Reason for placing first set of 8340 behind any back row seating is so that back row gets impression of "its behind you" if placed too forwards it will sound like its beside you.

Once you fit a second row in and play an "all-channel pink noise" only on the sidewall surround, you'll grasp the idea. keep the second row a few inches behind any front row seating.

Place a third row so its a in front and at roughly same spacing distance and once all x6 are set up the sound of surround will wrap around the seating, just like the cinema.

How do you setup the processor for 3 pairs plus 2 pairs for Atmos? My room is only 19' deep (screen to rear wall...not sure if I have enough wall space to run 3 per side.

 

[andyblackcat]

Wire 2 speakers in parallel and knock on wood you shouldn't have much trouble, I know 3 is a bit of an odd number when checking with multi-meter volt-meter with regards to impedance but I been running my sidewall 3 each side all parallel for months now with no snags.

Remember this. The surrounds are nearer to the seating so you'r not gonna need hundreds of watts to prove with someone else at most you might be only using up a few watts for a HARDEST of films like star trek into DEAFNESS! Trust me.

Wire + to - each time you add or go for x4 each sidewall and if I had gotten x10 pairs I would have put x4 each sidewall, but someone else brought a pair from same seller which left me with x8 to buy, privately.

Get x4 for each sidewall as the impedance will measure up nicely on multi-meter. Have you got a multi-meter?

This is a simple calculator to use.
http://www.speakerimpedance.co.uk/

 

[ellisr63]

Wire 2 speakers in parallel and knock on wood you shouldn't have much trouble, I know 3 is a bit of an odd number when checking with multi-meter volt-meter with regards to impedance but I been running my sidewall 3 each side all parallel for months now with no snags.

Remember this. The surrounds are nearer to the seating so you'r not gonna need hundreds of watts to prove with someone else at most you might be only using up a few watts for a HARDEST of films like star trek into DEAFNESS! Trust me.

Wire + to - each time you add or go for x4 each sidewall and if I had gotten x10 pairs I would have put x4 each sidewall, but someone else brought a pair from same seller which left me with x8 to buy, privately.

Get x4 for each sidewall as the impedance will measure up nicely on multi-meter. Have you got a multi-meter?

This is a simple calculator to use.
http://www.speakerimpedance.co.uk/

Thanks for the info.. I have a multimeter. I picked up 2 pairs of 8340As for$800 BNIB. I am not a see how loud it can go kind of guy. That is why I used to run 25wpc T-chip amps for my front 3 horns. I believe if you can hit reference level with 3-6 db of headroom left you have more than you will ever need...plus we usually listen at -10 to -20 for our movies.

 

[andyblackcat]

Whoa hold on there! 800 is a bit steep if no has the money. I rarely seen an 8340 sell within the £100.00 range?

8330 on eBay are often within the now and then when they do show up for around £150.00 or less for a pair with some sellers or rarely sold as single at steeper price.

I paid £35.00 per speaker and got a few rough handled ones in the post that I had to make minor repairs, and got the last one free postal and paid 99p for it, as eBaY, minimum is 99p.

I saw another UK seller that had at least more than x20 8330 and only wanted I think £80.00 for a pair but I think it was collection only, which can be negotiated for low cost postal.

Try and get the next 8340 for less as they are still actively used in cinemas and the 8330 is a discontinued model.

 

[ellisr63]

Whoa hold on there! 800 is a bit steep if no has the money. I rarely seen an 8340 sell within the £100.00 range?

8330 on eBay are often within the now and then when they do show up for around £150.00 or less for a pair with some sellers or rarely sold as single at steeper price.

I paid £35.00 per speaker and got a few rough handled ones in the post that I had to make minor repairs, and got the last one free postal and paid 99p for it, as eBaY, minimum is 99p.

I saw another UK seller that had at least more than x20 8330 and only wanted I think £80.00 for a pair but I think it was collection only, which can be negotiated for low cost postal.

Try and get the next 8340 for less as they are still actively used in cinemas and the 8330 is a discontinued model.

The ones I have are the 8340As not the 8340s... I have seen the 8340s for $25 each. On eBay USA this was the cheapest i have seen, plus they were BNIB not used. I never checked eBay UK. We went with the 8340As due to the weight being way less. I had Klipsch HIPs, and they were just more weight on the walls then I wanted to have. After installing the JBLs I am very happy with the sound of them, plus it puts me closer to having all one brand in the system.

 

[andyblackcat]

Well I was tempted to buy some from USA as the postal with the low cost price on some was excellent.

You typically have plasterboard walls or drywall. Well as long a the wall plug or specific type of wall plug is anchored well, and able to hold the weight there shouldn't be no reason for it to fall off the wall or ceiling!

Ceiling I would make sure check for ceiling joists and screw them up with a few screws into the ceiling joists and no reason why they shouldn't fall off if they do, you'll have a bad day in hospital. So check for joists then work out where to place each of the typical x4 for overhead with good positioning so the seating gets as best good overhead surround as possible.

Make sure you have friend to help out! You may need to open the speaker up remove the bass driver and drill a few holes and then get friend to hold in place and you screw it up tight into the plasterboard ceiling and into the joists! Then fit the bass driver back in fit the grill up and test with pink noise.

Another way is get friend to hold one up at ceiling level while you sit down and listen to get an idea before fitting it up, so at least you'll know where the best placement will be best suited for your room.

With a cluster on the sidewall you'd need only have to turn the level down on the AVR so that the level equals rule of thumb close to same level to a single overhead surround, its not all that hard to do, its straightforward.


Oh another thing I saw with an 8330 owner he, fitted wood too dry wall and wood to back of speaker that was both cut at 15 degree angle so all needed to do was hitch up in one easy go.

I got cheap tv wall brackets and used them as I wanted them as close flush possible with wall within few mm. So all I did was ashore them up, easy, well hard actually they are bit heaver and I had few troubles that I had to readjust bracket as the bracket was placed a few mm too high and I couldn't get the bracket to latch on. Measure twice drill once!

 

[andyblackcat]

I drilled some holes for the bracket and the other holes often used for another type of bracket that I didn't have, so I removed the bolt screws and filled the holes up with a little kitchen tissue with wood glue and poked it in the hole where it would dry hard.

The other half of the bracket fitted to the wall. Do make sure to wire the surrounds up first as if they fitted up tight to the wall near ceiling you won't have enough room to get your hands in, so wire them up first then hang them up and get some cheap cable conduct and stuff the wires in the casing, sorted done. I still got to finish mine off as I have cables galore all over the room.

This the cheap tv wall bracket I brought £9.99 each?

The room is more than surround satisfactory enough.

If your room has plasterboard walls you may need to check with one first fitted up and run a frequency sweep, to check that it isn't resonating rattle or buzzing against the wall or anything lose inside that may need minor fixing with some hot-glue or liquid-nails is just as good and cheap as well.

If your 8340A rattle against the wall, have no fear as a simple sticky rubber pad stuck on the back each side may sort the problem out or even blu-tack or anything that would absorb and is thin enough to place behind. But you shouldn't hear any rattles/buzzing resonate noises.

 

[andyblackcat]

ellisr63

I just looked at first page again and whoa. Your going to run into some tricky spots here.

What is your room floor to ceiling height at the front with normal floor and raised floor for the back row seating. I need the dimensions.

Also width of the room as well. Does the room widen at the front and narrow at the back.

Length of the room and maybe a better picture with a lights up on full and flash on the camera as I can't look a dark room but I fear your ceiling might be way more lower than mine? But height surround, huh, not impossible to fit in.

Oh and I need to know about what type of floor I hope its wood planks as if your thinking ahead of me now it can be done might take a while, get on when you have the time.

Also what type of ceiling do you have as I think you've got a more than a few days work here.


I looked at close view of back row that current surround nice to get it flush as possible in the wall but its way too near to the seating. The seating needs to come forwards back row needs at least a good 52" my room I guess is shorter length than your room.

Move that seating forwards and matched all around 8340 need to be as close to the ceiling or that false ceiling has got to be removed and "altered the deal" like Darth Vader would say, you have the option of getting a few more inches in height. I don't have that option myself I have plasterboard ceiling above and the loft so I don't have that option, you do.

Anyone sat in the back row seating won't hear the surround of I can think of many Dolby films I listened too over the decades, your not going to get that "over the shoulder surround effect" like you do at a cinema. You just won't, you turn around but I bet when you sit in front row its over the shoulder as your a bit further away from the back surround.

My front row needs to come forwards by at least 22" or so inches as my back row makes me look upwards! Front row not a problem. You see some cinemas where back rows are far too close against back wall and it would be the same problem, trust me. Its only some of the classic real cinemas that have spacing behind the back row seating to back wall where you'd often see a common x6 or more surrounds on the back wall with at least 7 or so feet spacing between but don't do that your home or mine or anyone else's don't have 80 feet length rooms to play with.


The left side of the rear when your facing the front of the room I guess that wall is plasterboard and what is behind it? A few pipes or some electrical cables? Get a sledgehammer and beat that wall out and make the room as even all-around as possible. If I had sledgehammer I would beat the chimney-breast out but can't do, if it was my own home I would! It sticks out 18" and I have to make part of the front left wall false.

So get that kink of wall to your left side knocked out and get some cheap plasterboard and remake the side of the wall at minimum cost.

 

[ellisr63]

ellisr63

I just looked at first page again and whoa. Your going to run into some tricky spots here.

What is your room floor to ceiling height at the front with normal floor and raised floor for the back row seating. I need the dimensions.

Also width of the room as well. Does the room widen at the front and narrow at the back.

Length of the room and maybe a better picture with a lights up on full and flash on the camera as I can't look a dark room but I fear your ceiling might be way more lower than mine? But height surround, huh, not impossible to fit in.

Oh and I need to know about what type of floor I hope its wood planks as if your thinking ahead of me now it can be done might take a while, get on when you have the time.

Also what type of ceiling do you have as I think you've got a more than a few days work here.


I looked at close view of back row that current surround nice to get it flush as possible in the wall but its way too near to the seating. The seating needs to come forwards back row needs at least a good 52" my room I guess is shorter length than your room.

Move that seating forwards and matched all around 8340 need to be as close to the ceiling or that false ceiling has got to be removed and "altered the deal" like Darth Vader would say, you have the option of getting a few more inches in height. I don't have that option myself I have plasterboard ceiling above and the loft so I don't have that option, you do.

Anyone sat in the back row seating won't hear the surround of I can think of many Dolby films I listened too over the decades, your not going to get that "over the shoulder surround effect" like you do at a cinema. You just won't, you turn around but I bet when you sit in front row its over the shoulder as your a bit further away from the back surround.

My front row needs to come forwards by at least 22" or so inches as my back row makes me look upwards! Front row not a problem. You see some cinemas where back rows are far too close against back wall and it would be the same problem, trust me. Its only some of the classic real cinemas that have spacing behind the back row seating to back wall where you'd often see a common x6 or more surrounds on the back wall with at least 7 or so feet spacing between but don't do that your home or mine or anyone else's don't have 80 feet length rooms to play with.


The left side of the rear when your facing the front of the room I guess that wall is plasterboard and what is behind it? A few pipes or some electrical cables? Get a sledgehammer and beat that wall out and make the room as even all-around as possible. If I had sledgehammer I would beat the chimney-breast out but can't do, if it was my own home I would! It sticks out 18" and I have to make part of the front left wall false.

So get that kink of wall to your left side knocked out and get some cheap plasterboard and remake the side of the wall at minimum cost.

Thanks for the info, but I am not going to tear into any of the walls at this point. I will just be locating the Atmos ceiling speakers, finish my equipment upgrades, then the rest of the fabric wall panels, and then call it done.

 

[andyblackcat]

Well take it slowly. Don't rush into it, overhead surrounds had been used at UCI, that I worked at some 26 years ago and had same exact likeness to what is around today. Now then.

 

[ellisr63]

I have 2 JBL 8320s mounted on the ceiling so far...with one of them having a GOM box panel covering it up from view (somewhat matching my ceiling first reflection panels). I hope to get the other panel made up this next week, and then wire the speakers, and calibrate them.

 

[Jay aLBERS]

Just curious, you list JBL's for surrounds, but the pics show Klipsch Commercial Heresy's?