The Denon AVR-X8500H

[KEW]

How big is your room? As PENG points out at 16.5 feet away your 804's may simply not be able to put out the SPL you would ideally want. Multichannel will help fill the room, but is best used for crowded parties where the sound waves get absorbed instead of having cancellations with other speakers playing the exact same signal.
In multichannel you have three speakers playing the right signal and three speakers playing the left signal and the recording was designed only to have one speaker playing each channel and for these two signals alone to interact rather than each channel having three source locations.

 

[richierey1]

Can we talk you out of using multich stereo or multiple stereo pairs in general?

of course

 

[richierey1]

My living room is 24ft by 18ft, but it actually seems a bit larger due to an open floor plan that has an adjacent formal dining area (13ft x 13ft) and foyer (16ft by 8ft).

When I initially purchased the 804s the original intent was to utilize them as a replacement for the CDM7 SEs (my original purchase back in 1997). However when i did a Front A/B comparison and flipped back and forth between stereo channels, i noticed that i liked the unique tonal characteristics of each and decided to keep both pairs side by side running them one pair at a time. One had aspects the other did not and vice versa. So I continued to flip back and forth (A/B) depending on a particular song or mood, then one day naturally ran both simultaneously (A+B). It was at that moment that the room was filled with what I perceived as a "richness" of sound that i decided to run multi-channel as my preferred default. From time to time i will run my system in Pure Direct with only the 804s, but in my humble opinion it sounds (and feels) like its missing something. Since that time I've had my son and friends perform a sound comparison and thus far all prefer the multi-channel experience.

 

[lovinthehd]

Have you instead tried running them in a surround mode rather than the multi-ch stereo mode? What seems lacking with just 2 speakers going? The low end? That's somewhere in the neighborhood of 5000 cuft so suspect as much. The two subs are always in play? Integrated how?

 

[richierey1]

Yes, I've played with many different configurations. Subs are about 16ft apart on opposite locations of the room (West/East) adjacent to the tower speakers.

1 pair at a time
2 pair at a time
3 pair at a time
All 6 Large, Full Band, w/o sub
All 6 Large, Full Band w/sub
804s Large, Full Band and CDM7 NT/SEs Large with differing crossover settings, w/o sub
804s Large, Full Band and CDM7 NT/SEs Large with differing crossover settings, w/ sub
804s Large, Full Band and CDM7 NT/SEs Small with differing crossover settings, w/o sub
804s Large, Full Band and CDM7 NT/SEs Small with differing crossover settings, w/ sub
etc ...

And no DSP other than M-DAX typically set to Low, equalizer settings and tone (treble/bass).

And the preferred listening experience is 9 times out of 10 all 6 running simultaneously in Full Band without sub. With 8 drivers moving in phase at the same time there honestly isn't a need for a sub. More often than not its just overkill.

 

[lovinthehd]

No dsp? Sounds like quite a bit with crossovers, dynamic compression, eq and tone controls What eq and tone control settings?

What about running them in a surround format? Or do you only listen to 2ch music? No movies? Where are the speakers located in the room as well as your listening position?

Have you considered a 2ch pre-amp unit with power amps instead?

 

[richierey1]

I only listen to 2 channel music. No movies. No video games. I have a massive TV in my family room, but not my living room. My living room is reserved for music only. Please see my photograph to get an idea of speaker placement. Listening position is about 16.5 ft away. As for a pre-amp unit, i wrote earlier about using my AVR simply as a pre-amp and purchasing monoblocks for power.

Here's my current typical setup:

Speaker Configuration
- Amp Assign: Main only
- Speaker config.:
Front: Large
Center: None
Subwoofer: No
Surround: Large
Surr. Back: Large
Front Wide: None
Front High: None
- Distances: Default
- Crossovers: Disabled
- Bass: LPF for LFE, 80HZ

Audio
- Surround parameter: Off
- M-Dax: Low
- Audio Delay: None
- Volume: 0 - 98
- Audyssey: Not enabled
- Graphic EQ: Off

Sound Mode
- Multi-channel stereo

Tone
- Treble: +2
- Bass: 0

 

[PENG]

I only listen to 2 channel music. No movies. No video games.

But you said "about 80% of my listening material is streamed from my iphone via Qobuz" The iPhone (even the older models),aren't bad but not that great. As I mentioned before, in a set up like yours, the quality of the source is probably most important.

Speaker Configuration

- Amp Assign: Main only
- Speaker config.:
Front: Large
Center: None
Subwoofer: No
Surround: Large
Surr. Back: Large
Front Wide: None
Front High: None
- Distances: Default
- Crossovers: Disabled
- Bass: LPF for LFE, 80HZ

I see at major issues here, including but not limited to the following:

1) For two channel music it does not matter, but for movies and 7.1 music that has the .1 (LFE) channel, you will be missing a lot in that channel by limiting LPF for LFE to 80 Hz. It should be set to 120 Hz or higher.

2) What are your typical volume setting, and level settings for each channel? If anywhere near zero, you are really pushing the limit of the 6009 using all 6 speakers set to full range.

3) Without Audyssey to at least try integrating the 6 speakers in the 20-250 Hz range, I bet if you do a REW sweep you will not likely see a pretty picture in the FR for that range. You may be lucky though, it is a real hit and miss thing..

When you say "distances: Default", does that mean you did run auto setup?

Audio

- M-Dax: Low

You said no DSP, but if M-DAX is engaged, you are using DSP.

Sound Mode

- Multi-channel stereo

Given this is your normal sound mode, it is highly important to know your current volume position, and your level settings, in order to figure out if you would benefit from an external amp.

 

[richierey1]

RE: 2 Channel music
Correct, about 80% of my listening material is streamed via bluetooth from my iPhone to my AVR using Qobuz. The other 20% is vinyl. Are there any devices that stream better than a typical iPhone? I honestly didn't think it mattered since Bluetooth technology is standard across all formats. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

RE: Speaker configuration
1) I listen in 2 channel only. No Movies. But i will try out the LPF for LFE at 120 HZ and report back later.
2) Volume scale is set to 0-98 (default). I typically listen between 60 and 80 (absolute scale) depending upon the input source. Channel level settings are zero (a while back I used a db meter app with the AVR's Test Tone and did not notice a major difference in gain between speakers.) And distances for all 6 speakers are 12ft (not 16.5). Hmmm ... perhaps i should get a decent db meter and revisit both channel level and distance.
3) I've no idea what an REW sweep is.

RE: Audio
Yeah, I think I'm showing my age because back in the day Dolby, DTS and THX were denoted "Digital Sound Processing (DSP)" in my old Yamaha receiver manual over 20 years ago. So i still use the term. But that was what i was referring to. I don't use those sound modes. And I see M-DAX as more a compression solution as opposed to sound mode. Semantics.

RE: Sound Mode
See above in Speaker Configuration.


Thanks.

 

[lovinthehd]

DSP just means digital signal processing....it takes many forms in an avr in order for it to process the audio the way you want. Your delay (distance) setting uses it, too, in addition to what I mentioned (and not sure why you even need it the way you have the speakers positioned); the audio delay you mentioned is about synching video/audio together. Yamaha did have the funky use of the term, too (Yamahas have some strange terminology altogether for some other functions, too). Bluetooth uses it too. It's just not analog in the end and doesn't mean it's bad particularly.

If you don't play multich music on a dvd or bluray you're not using the LFE channel so the LPF of LFE setting isn't going to matter (it's just a limit on upper frequency when the LFE channel is in use, and like Peng mentions, is nominally 120hz). I doubt Audyssey will do a lot for that speaker configuration either.

I'd think the phone can act as a decent streamer, tho I'd use wifi over bluetooth. Maybe a more reliable/interference-free method would be with a hardwired digital audio player, but I stream over wifi mostly without issue except for those my shitty ISP interferes with.

As to the three speakers per side I'd just move to two, even if they had to be better/bigger speakers to accomplish that. I do like really low bass even in music so I'd still integrate subs with most speakers, plus subs have the ability to be placed for optimum performance. If you're not using the subs kind of a moot point as to how well you integrated them (or not). Your multiple drivers spread across the front of the room may address most room modes, hard to know without measurements, tho.

Knowing more about your use/setup, I'd probably think about adding a multi-ch amp (rather than 6 mono block amps) rather than a new avr.

 

[richierey1]

Thank you. After following all the threads, it looks like external amplification is the way to go. And muti-channel, not individual monoblocks. That said, is there a major difference in SQ between the Outlaw 7 channel 200W amp versus the Monolith 7 channel 200W amp?

Knowing my gear, positioning, listening preference and audio configuration, which would you recommend to be "best fit"? Or do you have other recommendations?

 

[richierey1]

Just my opinion. I use a Big Pioneer elite, then use a separate Pioneer elite amp to drive my RBH reference AMT tweeters. I can hear a difference that is really noticeable. They have a more sweet and airy quality. When I bi- amped using the Pioneer receiver it’s self, I couldn’t tell a difference.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks.

 

[PENG]

If you're not using the subs kind of a moot point as to how well you integrated them (or not). Your multiple drivers spread across the front of the room may address most room modes, hard to know without measurements, tho.

Why not?? Audyssey will at least try to address the issues due to different delays/phase difference between the 6 channels. Spreading out typically help reduce room mode related issue but not phase issues that may result in booms and cancellations, that's something Room EQ system can usually do a decent job on.

 

[richierey1]

Why not?? Audyssey will at least try to address the issues due to different delays/phase difference between the 6 channels. Spreading out typically help reduce room mode related issue but not phase issues that may result in booms and cancellations, that's something Room EQ system can usually do a decent job on.

Thank you. I will try Audyssey when i have time and will report back what i found. Probably this Wednesday 10/30 when i have my son with me. He is much more meticulous and patient than i am with those things. ;-)

If anything, it should give me a basline from which to begin, then tweak to my preference as opposed to just casting assumptions.

Thanks.

 

[PENG]

RE: 2 Channel music
Are there any devices that stream better than a typical iPhone? I honestly didn't think it mattered since Bluetooth technology is standard across all formats. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

It is not a simple right or wrong thing.. The recording quality is paramount. If you have HD files of high quality recordings at bit depth/sampling frequency of 24bit/192kHz or higher, and/or DSD/SACD files, then you need to stream via Ethernet or wifi that are capable of transferring at much higher bit rate. If you play only MP3 quality or even CD quality digital files, then bluetooth is very adequate. So it seems that you are happy with MP3 kind of quality, in that case just about any mid range AVRs will be good for you, just make sure you have adequate power for you and don't worry about the difference in sound quality because the difference between different power amps at the price point of the Monolith and Outlaw are very minimal, relative to the difference between MP3 and CD quality (just an example).

If you are listen with volume at 80 now, the SR6009 is barely adequate. "80" in absolute is "0" in relative. You are probably listening at or near reference level, just my educated guess.

To really make a difference though, I would suggest the Outlaw 7900 that is rated 300 WPC, 8 ohms. With that, at volume 0 you would gain almost 5 dB of headroom and your AVR may last longer.

 

[Pogre]

Oh my goodness... OP you've come to the right place. You've got some homework to do, but I believe some significant improvements can be made in your system if you set it up properly. For starters I'm with HD on the multiple stereo pairs. Phew.

 

[lovinthehd]

Why not?? Audyssey will at least try to address the issues due to different delays/phase difference between the 6 channels. Spreading out typically help reduce room mode related issue but not phase issues that may result in booms and cancellations, that's something Room EQ system can usually do a decent job on.

Because without subs and the speakers arranged that way I don't think it will do much, if anything at all other than basic eq, at least I don't think Audyssey does much just between different channels of full range speakers otherwise. I could be mistaken, but since hardly anyone does setup their speakers this way, don't believe I've ever seen an Audyssey derived comment on such.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thank you. After following all the threads, it looks like external amplification is the way to go. And muti-channel, not individual monoblocks. That said, is there a major difference in SQ between the Outlaw 7 channel 200W amp versus the Monolith 7 channel 200W amp?

Knowing my gear, positioning, listening preference and audio configuration, which would you recommend to be "best fit"? Or do you have other recommendations?

They're made both by ATI so take your pick. ATI direct would be another choice in similar amp. Emotiva XPA-7 would be another similar amp. I'd hope there are no sound quality issues among any of these, nor should there be if they are doing their jobs properly.

 

[PENG]

Because without subs and the speakers arranged that way I don't think it will do much, if anything at all other than basic eq, at least I don't think Audyssey does much just between different channels of full range speakers otherwise. I could be mistaken, but since hardly anyone does setup their speakers this way, don't believe I've ever seen an Audyssey derived comment on such.

My REW plots confirmed it did quite a bit. Audyssey, or any other DRC systems I know of, EQ all channels. XT does have more filters for the sub channel, but XT32 offers the same for all channels. The .1 channel is no different than the other channels. I am using the Dirac Live beta PC standalone version now for my 2.0 systems now, no subwoofer EQ, just the mains.

 

[lovinthehd]

My REW plots confirmed it did quite a bit. Audyssey, or any other DRC systems I know of, EQ all channels. XT does have more filters for the sub channel, but XT32 offers the same for all channels. The .1 channel is no different than the other channels. I am using the Dirac Live beta PC standalone version now for my 2.0 systems now, no subwoofer EQ, just the mains.

Hadn't really thought of it quite that way but I'd still like to see something about the phase correction between full rangers rather than at the crossover....