The deepest bass from a bookshelf?

[silversurfer]

Heh Mani-2 are anything but small. They are not monitor speakers, more like big stand mounts. They retail for almost $6000 and IMO the best speaker Totem makes. They use Dynaudio dual 6.5in drivers.

Dimensions: 16.5 x 8.5 x 12"

I have a friend that had Mani-2's, although I never got to hear them. He spoke very highly of them. The only down side is they are relatively inefficient, requiring good amount of power to drive.

 

[TLS Guy]

I have a friend that had Mani-2's, although I never got to hear them. He spoke very highly of them. The only down side is they are relatively inefficient, requiring good amount of power to drive.

I have never heard these, but I have a few comments. I'm very familiar with the Dynaudio drivers. They have fantastic motor systems. They have difficult impedance curves and require relatively large enclosures. This makes Isobarik loading necessary if an enclosure is going to be called bookshelf with a straight face.

Now I have read reviews and tests of this speaker. It has problems in the 1KHz range, that reviewers have commented on, in listening tests. It gives rise to a nasty shelf at 1KHz on the waterfall plot.

Now I don't know if the mid and HF is rolled off to the concealed rear driver. This Dynaudio driver is not known for this 1 KHz aberration problem. If the mid and HF is rolled off, which I suspect, then my guess is that this 1KHz problem is caused by reflections from the cone of the concealed rear driver. If it is not rolled off then there is likely some comb filtering going on as the mid bass of the rear driver passes through the front driver cone.

These Dynaudio drivers are very expensive, and sadly no longer available to the DIY community. I don't think this arrangement is the best use of these very expensive drivers. Because of the high chance of driver interaction in the midrange when bass/mid drivers are used in isobarik configuration, in my view it is best avoided.

 

[3db]

I have never heard these, but I have a few comments. I'm very familiar with the Dynaudio drivers. They have fantastic motor systems. They have difficult impedance curves and require relatively large enclosures. This makes Isobarik loading necessary if an enclosure is going to be called bookshelf with a straight face.

Now I have read reviews and tests of this speaker. It has problems in the 1KHz range, that reviewers have commented on, in listening tests. It gives rise to a nasty shelf at 1KHz on the waterfall plot.

Now I don't know if the mid and HF is rolled off to the concealed rear driver. This Dynaudio driver is not known for this 1 KHz aberration problem. If the mid and HF is rolled off, which I suspect, then my guess is that this 1KHz problem is caused by reflections from the cone of the concealed rear driver. If it is not rolled off then there is likely some comb filtering going on as the mid bass of the rear driver passes through the front driver cone.

These Dynaudio drivers are very expensive, and sadly no longer available to the DIY community. I don't think this arrangement is the best use of these very expensive drivers. Because of the high chance of driver interaction in the midrange when bass/mid drivers are used in isobarik configuration, in my view it is best avoided.

You need to listen to speakers before making such a conclusion. These speakers are well received in the audio community and your recommendations are based on specs alone. For once, I'd say you are giving out poor advice. Specs do not tell the whole story.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Ok, I think it's time for something that has been long awaited. I don't think I am alone here when I say we need to see what you have Joe.

The system I am currently listening to is the Onkyo C315 one-box electronics and Mirage Omni 350s. I also own a Carver CM-1090 integrated amp (massive power but a bit lacking in clarity and soundstage), an Onkyo DX-C390 CD changer (great sound but bulky, plus I have come to prefer a single-drawer), Athena Audition F1s (fuller sounding than the Mirages, with very strong bass, but less detailed and with a bit of sibilance), and of course my Def Tech BP10Bs and BP8Bs (which sound awesome, but I prefer to keep them in my HT.)

 

[Joe Schmoe]

I have a friend that had Mani-2's, although I never got to hear them. He spoke very highly of them. The only down side is they are relatively inefficient, requiring good amount of power to drive.

So how do the more affordable Totems (Dreamcatcher, Rainmaker, Mite) compare to the Mani-2s?

 

[TLS Guy]

You need to listen to speakers before making such a conclusion. These speakers are well received in the audio community and your recommendations are based on specs alone. For once, I'd say you are giving out poor advice. Specs do not tell the whole story.

I already gave the disclaimer of no audition. I was commenting concerning the nature of problems that can occur with Isobarik loading. The step is there in the Waterfall plot and reviewers have made comments about midrange problems. I know the problem is not due to the drivers per se. That was the point of my comment.

 

[Seth=L]

The system I am currently listening to is the Onkyo C315 one-box electronics and Mirage Omni 350s. I also own a Carver CM-1090 integrated amp (massive power but a bit lacking in clarity and soundstage), an Onkyo DX-C390 CD changer (great sound but bulky, plus I have come to prefer a single-drawer), Athena Audition F1s (fuller sounding than the Mirages, with very strong bass, but less detailed and with a bit of sibilance), and of course my Def Tech BP10Bs and BP8Bs (which sound awesome, but I prefer to keep them in my HT.)

Ok, and pictures?

 

[3db]

I already gave the disclaimer of no audition. I was commenting concerning the nature of problems that can occur with Isobarik loading. The step is there in the Waterfall plot and reviewers have made comments about midrange problems. I know the problem is not due to the drivers per se. That was the point of my comment.

You still based a recommendation on other's opinions and plots and not hearing them for yourself. Thats what I'm saying.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Ok, and pictures?

Not very good with a camera, and pretty clueless about uploading pictures into my PC.

 

[Davemcc]

You still based a recommendation on other's opinions and plots and not hearing them for yourself. Thats what I'm saying.

Would a first-hand opinion by TLS Guy be worth more than that of the reviewers he sourced, or is it just one more opinion in a stack of opinions?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You still based a recommendation on other's opinions and plots and not hearing them for yourself. Thats what I'm saying.

A lot of times in life, I would say things like, "I have not personally listened to this system, but this is what a lot of knowledgable people say about it...".

I think it is just as good.

I mean who is to say that my opinion is worth more than anyone else on this forum? My personal opinion may be different, but it is certainly not worth more than TLS Guy or a lot of you guys.

I own the Def Tech BP7000SCs and I think their bass output is phenominal and will outperform any subwoofers at Best Buy or Circuit City, but a lot of people don't agree.

I guess your point is, unless you have personally listened to the speakers in your own home (not in stores or show rooms), you really can't say too much about it?

Most of us have only listened to 2 or 3 pairs of speakers in our own home, but we may have listened to 20 pairs of speakers at stores and show rooms. They sound completely different in a good acoustic room vs. these stores and show rooms.

Just thinking out loud.

What is my point? I forgot.

 

[Seth=L]

Not very good with a camera, and pretty clueless about uploading pictures into my PC.

Well it's not that hard. All you have to do is connect the camera via usb to your computer and power the camera on. The Windows Photo Wizard will prompt you to extract the pictures, it will take you through an easy step by step process on uploading them.

 

[3db]

Would a first-hand opinion by TLS Guy be worth more than that of the reviewers he sourced, or is it just one more opinion in a stack of opinions?

I guess its just one more opinion.. take it with a grain of salt.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So.........back to the original question: best bass from a bookshelf?

I just don't see how any bookshelf speaker can compete with a big tower speaker for the bass extension. To the best of my knowledge, the best bass output from a bookshelf speaker measured independently by a third party is around 37 Hz +/-3dB. Manufacturers claims have been a lot lower, but that's another story.

Should we say in the mid 30s then?

 

[samandnoah]

Alegria's Emma speaker

http://www.us.alegriaaudio.com/Emma.htm

I've never heard them, but have been interested in them for a while.

Claims 36Hz to 20Khz +/- 3dB. Not very efficient at 86dB per watt @ one meter. Runs $699/pair. 17”H x 9.5”W x 11.5”D so I think it still quals as a bookshelf.

If anyone has heard them (or owns them!), I'd love to see some feedback.

Regards,
Rich

 

[Joe Schmoe]

http://www.us.alegriaaudio.com/Emma.htm

I've never heard them, but have been interested in them for a while.

Claims 36Hz to 20Khz +/- 3dB. Not very efficient at 86dB per watt @ one meter. Runs $699/pair. 17”H x 9.5”W x 11.5”D so I think it still quals as a bookshelf.

If anyone has heard them (or owns them!), I'd love to see some feedback.

Regards,
Rich

They are out of business. The site offers DIY plans, though.

 

[gus6464]

So how do the more affordable Totems (Dreamcatcher, Rainmaker, Mite) compare to the Mani-2s?

The Mani-2 will beat them in dynamics and output but you need a lot of power to get there. The Model-1 sigs are very similar and require less power. In the affordable range I preferred the dreamcatcher over the rainmaker in the midrange but the rainmaker has a better tweeter. For $500 or less you cant go wrong with the dreamcatcher but for $1000 I would prefer the Arro slim tower out of all of them including the Model-1.