The DAC Debates thread

[alcy]

Well, I have been reading across various boards and there is generally a disagreement regarding the usefulness of external DACs. Some are completely elated by adding a budget DAC (Beresford Caiman, Musical Fidelity V-DAC, CA DacMagic etc.) to their setups while others downright disapprove of the idea.

Of course this thread also serves the purpose for newbies and generally people looking to buying DACs in the future.

I personally do fancy the idea of improving the performance of mass market DVD players by adding a budget DAC component to the chain (apart from the use for computers)...of course how much truth in that is remains to be discussed in this thread.

Looking forward to know the opinions of other members.

 

[highfigh]

How much better would you expect a budget aftermarket DAC unit to be than the one in a CD or DVD player? I don't see it making much, if any, sense to do this. While the internal one may not be expensive if the cost is found out, you need to realize that the cost was an OEM part price sourced from the same area as where it's manufactured, not a whole unit that needs to be designed from the ground up. There's also the economy of scale to consider- how many of the aftermarket units will be made? How can they hope to compete WRT the cost of the chip when a small number of units are made vs 100K of some major manufacturer's model?

Why not just find a better CD or DVD player?

 

[skers_54]

I don't see the point of using an external DAC unless you have a purely 2-channel system with truly full-range mains. Otherwise you won't be able to do bass management without re-digitizing the signal. I guess you could if you used an active external crossover with separates, but that's a whole other level of complexity and expense. Add in what Highfigh said, and it seems pretty frivolous.

I'd much rather spend the money on room treatments or hookers.

 

[majorloser]

.....or hookers.

Finally the subject of DACs has got me interested.

 

[krzywica]

Finally the subject of DACs has got me interested.

Yes I would agree. There is much to discuss and debate on this subject. Size of the unit, "output" quality, rack depth.....

 

[skers_54]

Yes I would agree. There is much to discuss and debate on this subject. Size of the unit, "output" quality, rack depth.....

Don't forget cleanliness...

 

[alcy]

...and of course the safety precautions. Gotta drive things those carefully. lol what has become of this thread.

 

[krzywica]

In all seriousness.....IMHO unless you are spending $1k+ for a DAC your not going to get a big improvement when compared to an entry level receiver like a Yamaha RX-V366.

 

[egreen1976]

I was hoping this subject would come up... Recently purchased a Peachtree Nova to be used as a DAC. While it improves the sound of devices such as apple tv, Sonos, etc. (which i assume have horrible DACs), I'm not positive it does anything for my Oppo. (also important to note that the Peachtree has a tube you can also use)

That being said, can someone suggest the following

1) The best 2 or 3 budget DACs (appx $500)

2) the best 2 or 3 DACs in the $1000 price range

3) Which brand receiver processors have highly regarded DACs? How are the Denon/Yammy/Onkyo DACs vs. Integra/Rotel etc.

4) Would adding an outboard DAC to a rotel or integra or parasound etc... be a substantial improvement?

 

[sholling]

I was hoping this subject would come up... Recently purchased a Peachtree Nova to be used as a DAC. While it improves the sound of devices such as apple tv, Sonos, etc. (which i assume have horrible DACs), I'm not positive it does anything for my Oppo. (also important to note that the Peachtree has a tube you can also use)

That being said, can someone suggest the following

1) The best 2 or 3 budget DACs (appx $500)

2) the best 2 or 3 DACs in the $1000 price range

3) Which brand receiver processors have highly regarded DACs? How are the Denon/Yammy/Onkyo DACs vs. Integra/Rotel etc.

4) Would adding an outboard DAC to a rotel or integra or parasound etc... be a substantial improvement?

I suspect you'll hear the same level of improvement from external DACs that you hear from $500 cables.

I'll just stick with the DACs in my receivers and Monoprice cables thank you.

 

[Warpdrv]

I suspect you'll hear the same level of improvement from external DACs that you hear from $500 cables.

There are lots of people and discussion that have gone the route of setting up a Home Theater Bypass setup to run DAC's for their 2 channel listening... in which they can use a decent generic preamp or receiver for their HT and then bypass it to run an external preamp or outside DACs for a better 2 channel experience...

I myself wanted to doubt the improvement as if there would be any change or was like you say sholling no difference then expensive cables... It was truly night and day difference. Nuance and I both had the opportunity to check out a friends setup with a Yamaha receiver, external amp and a Parasound 2100 hooked up to his Sierra's... The sound stage improvement was exceptional, at the push of a button, you could go from the Yamaha feed out to the speakers and then through the DACs in the Parasound, it was night and day, and I am a huge skeptic of smoke and mirrors. There is no question in my mind that the Parasound sounded far superior to the Yamaha. Wider - Deeper, fuller sound stage....

Of coarse not all external DACs are going to be good or great or maybe no difference at all.

 

[sholling]

The sound stage improvement was exceptional, at the push of a button, you could go from the Yamaha feed out to the speakers and then through the DACs in the Parasound, it was night and day, and I am a huge skeptic of smoke and mirrors. There is no question in my mind that the Parasound sounded far superior to the Yamaha. Wider - Deeper, fuller sound stage....

Digital to analog conversion can either add to, subtract from, or treat the data in a neutral manner. If the DAC is ignoring or downplaying part of the data then it's a defective design. If it's emphasizing something then that's distortion even if it sounds pleasant. I'd be interested in some measurements to see although what the differences are in the signals, I'm not sure how it could be done.

So I guess the question is... are the Burr-Brown's 192K/24 Bit DACs used in $1500-3000 receivers lower end than the Burr-Browns used in the Parasound? Or is some form of processing being applied? I'm just curious.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

There are lots of people and discussion that have gone the route of setting up a Home Theater Bypass setup to run DAC's for their 2 channel listening... in which they can use a decent generic preamp or receiver for their HT and then bypass it to run an external preamp or outside DACs for a better 2 channel experience...

I myself wanted to doubt the improvement as if there would be any change or was like you say sholling no difference then expensive cables... It was truly night and day difference. Nuance and I both had the opportunity to check out a friends setup with a Yamaha receiver, external amp and a Parasound 2100 hooked up to his Sierra's... The sound stage improvement was exceptional, at the push of a button, you could go from the Yamaha feed out to the speakers and then through the DACs in the Parasound, it was night and day, and I am a huge skeptic of smoke and mirrors. There is no question in my mind that the Parasound sounded far superior to the Yamaha. Wider - Deeper, fuller sound stage....

Of coarse not all external DACs are going to be good or great or maybe no difference at all.

Just to clear in Yamaha vs Parasound - was same external amp used in both cases or yammi was powering speakers by itself?

btw External DACs were the big reason I left AK forums

ps: I don't see any digital inputs on Parasound 2100 ?? ( I guess it doesn't have dacs then.... )

 

[egreen1976]

The parasound 2100 has no DACs, it is an analog 2 channel preamp with HT bypass. I have a similar setup and am deciding between that and the new Rotel 15 series with the bypass. That being said, "what are you using as the DAC in your setup?" Is it the Yammy's processor?

Someone mentioned the distortion of the DACs and I can say while the Peachtree Nova certainly enriches the sound, it also distorts it, even more so with the tube enabled.

The question I would love answered (I'll be testing this myself) is whether an outboard DAC would be any better than one in something like an Integra?

There are lots of people and discussion that have gone the route of setting up a Home Theater Bypass setup to run DAC's for their 2 channel listening... in which they can use a decent generic preamp or receiver for their HT and then bypass it to run an external preamp or outside DACs for a better 2 channel experience...

I myself wanted to doubt the improvement as if there would be any change or was like you say sholling no difference then expensive cables... It was truly night and day difference. Nuance and I both had the opportunity to check out a friends setup with a Yamaha receiver, external amp and a Parasound 2100 hooked up to his Sierra's... The sound stage improvement was exceptional, at the push of a button, you could go from the Yamaha feed out to the speakers and then through the DACs in the Parasound, it was night and day, and I am a huge skeptic of smoke and mirrors. There is no question in my mind that the Parasound sounded far superior to the Yamaha. Wider - Deeper, fuller sound stage....

Of coarse not all external DACs are going to be good or great or maybe no difference at all.

 

[Warpdrv]

Just to clear in Yamaha vs Parasound - was same external amp used in both cases or yammi was powering speakers by itself?

btw External DACs were the big reason I left AK forums

ps: I don't see any digital inputs on Parasound 2100 ?? ( I guess it doesn't have dacs then.... )

Yes, sorry, it was the analog ins - and yes it outputting to the same external outboard amp...

So it was how each unit handled the sound.

 

[highfigh]

Digital to analog conversion can either add to, subtract from, or treat the data in a neutral manner. If the DAC is ignoring or downplaying part of the data then it's a defective design. If it's emphasizing something then that's distortion even if it sounds pleasant. I'd be interested in some measurements to see although what the differences are in the signals, I'm not sure how it could be done.

So I guess the question is... are the Burr-Brown's 192K/24 Bit DACs used in $1500-3000 receivers lower end than the Burr-Browns used in the Parasound? Or is some form of processing being applied? I'm just curious.

They're not all Burr-Brown, but if someone can get me some Burr-Brown part numbers, I can find out exactly what the differences are- I have a friend who works for Texas Instruments and TI owns Burr-Brown.

 

[highfigh]

These posts reminded me that any difference is most likely due to the analog section, not the converter chip(s).

 

[mtrycrafts]

I don't see the point of using an external DAC unless you have a purely 2-channel system with truly full-range mains. Otherwise you won't be able to do bass management without re-digitizing the signal. I guess you could if you used an active external crossover with separates, but that's a whole other level of complexity and expense. Add in what Highfigh said, and it seems pretty frivolous.

I'd much rather spend the money on room treatments or hookers.

Not both?

 

[mtrycrafts]

...

I personally do fancy the idea of improving the performance of mass market DVD players by adding a budget DAC component to the chain (apart from the use for computers)...of course how much truth in that is remains to be discussed in this thread.

Looking forward to know the opinions of other members.

Just because it is a mass market player doesn't mean that the internal DAC is bad.
And, most likely the DVD player is connected to a receiver digitally to do any and all DAC functions so that negates any fears, or should.

Besides, the only credible way to find out is through a credible DBT comparison of the dacs. Anything less is unreliable at best.

 

[highfigh]

Just to clear in Yamaha vs Parasound - was same external amp used in both cases or yammi was powering speakers by itself?

btw External DACs were the big reason I left AK forums

ps: I don't see any digital inputs on Parasound 2100 ?? ( I guess it doesn't have dacs then.... )

You got tired of reading that the Audio Research DAC brought a system to life, consisting of Omega 3 speakers, Fischer CD player modded to have a digital out, a 1980 MCS receiver with integrated cassette recorder/player and BSR 310AXE turntable? That's not very tolerant of you.