THE ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN FALLACY

gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
I have tested a few power amps under various load conditions and have found that most appear to have a PF of the numbers quoted above at idle and low power conditions. However, when the load increases the PF gets gets higher (up to approximately 0.8 to 0.85). This is due to the rectifier diodes being "on" for a longer period of time. The article appears to differ with the measurements I have taken.
Why?
d.b.
Dan here is the response to your question directly from Mike from APC

The PF strongly depends on a number of factors including the Diode Conduction Angle. The PF and Diode Conduction Angle are affected by:

AC Voltage Waveshape (Voltage on the Primary)
Governed by: Impedance of the Line & Other Electronic Loads on the AC Line Secondary (Transformer Output) Voltage Waveshape
Governed by: Regulation of the transformer -> Impedance of the transformer, winding resistance. etc

The impedance of the line and the regulation of the transformer are the main factors which will alter the power factor. The softer the line, the more the sine wave will flattop and become distorted. Diode conduction time (angle) is governed by the electrical properties of the diode. A diode acts like a one way valve such that the output voltage must be lower than its input voltage. Once the Anode is lower than the Cathode, the diode will conduct. The flatter the AC waveform, the longer the conduction time. This has the effect of increasing the power factor.

If the transformer has poor regulation - if the output wave shape is severely flattened ('flattopped') by the diode bridge, it also has the affect of increasing the power factor. In other words, the transformer is soft and has a high impedance, the PF increases.

One trick used by some designers is to increase the impedance - to force the PF higher with added series impedance. Those familiar with old tube power supplies will note that many have an inductor in series with the output of the transformer. This has two relevant benefits - it increases the PF and decreases in-rush currents. The designer may purposefully design a high impedance transformer too.

The bulk supply capacitance also affects the diode conduction angle and hence the PF. Bulk supply capacitance determines the amount of ripple on the amplifier supply rails and the amount of peak power available to the speakers. Decreasing the capacitance increases the PF while loaded, but increases the ripple on the amplifier supply rails.

Another pitfall when measuring PF occurs when using a VARIAC. Take a look at the VARIAC plots. A moderate quality variac was loaded using a simulated audio amplifier under load. The input was generated by a 15kVA AC source that provided a very stiff and pure sine wave. The output (ch2) of the VARIAC was flat-toped and more trapezoidal in shape. Therefore the PF of the amplifier changed with the addition of the variac.
 
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D

Dan Banquer

Full Audioholic
The ACD Test

So I guess from Mike's answer he is including PF for power supplies that are out of regulation or just plain bad designs. Is that a fair assumption?
d.b.
 
B

billnchristy

Senior Audioholic
Is the 15a limitation the reason there are no high current home amps? Being a former car audio installer I am used to running my sub amp at 1ohm mono, but it just doesnt seem possible or probable for home purposes.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Is the 15a limitation the reason there are no high current home amps? Being a former car audio installer I am used to running my sub amp at 1ohm mono, but it just doesnt seem possible or probable for home purposes.
Why do you need to run an amp at 1 ohm? There should be little reason for a loudspeakers impedance to dip much below 3 ohms if the crossover is properly designed.

15A is on the primary 120V side. You can of course achieve higher current on the secondary side once the transformer steps the voltage down below 120V. IE. 400 watts into 1 ohm only requires 20Vrms but a whopping 20A of current!
 
xboxweasel

xboxweasel

Full Audioholic
confused

I read parts of the article and I am confused. How does an amplifiers specification on WPC relate back to the actual load on the 120VAC branch circuit.

For example: One of my amplifiers is rated for 200W@8omhs, 300W@4ohms, and 410W@2ohms. This is a 2 channel amplifier.
200x2=400W
300x2=600W
410x2=820W
If I then take those values and divide by 0.40 (for 40% efficiency for linear power supplies) I get 1000W, 1500W, and 2050W respectively.

On a 120VAC circuit that works out to 8.3A, 12.5A, and 17.1A respectively. Is this what the unit requires at full load with the different speaker loads connected? Or how else would I have to calculate this?

I know I will never hit these kinds of values. I just want to know how an amplifiers rated output for the different speaker impedances relates to what current it needs from the receptacle to do that.
 
MACCA350

MACCA350

Audioholic Chief
xboxweasel said:
I read parts of the article and I am confused. How does an amplifiers specification on WPC relate back to the actual load on the 120VAC branch circuit.

For example: One of my amplifiers is rated for 200W@8omhs, 300W@4ohms, and 410W@2ohms. This is a 2 channel amplifier.
200x2=400W
300x2=600W
410x2=820W
If I then take those values and divide by 0.40 (for 40% efficiency for linear power supplies) I get 1000W, 1500W, and 2050W respectively.

On a 120VAC circuit that works out to 8.3A, 12.5A, and 17.1A respectively. Is this what the unit requires at full load with the different speaker loads connected? Or how else would I have to calculate this?

I know I will never hit these kinds of values. I just want to know how an amplifiers rated output for the different speaker impedances relates to what current it needs from the receptacle to do that.
I think you're calculations assume 120V at the speakers but the speakers don't see 120V.

eg.
200W @ 8ohm = 40.0V and 5.0A
300W @ 4ohm = 34.6V and 8.6A
410W @ 2ohm = 28.6V and 14.3A

This calculator can help do the sums

cheers:)
 
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gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
I read parts of the article and I am confused. How does an amplifiers specification on WPC relate back to the actual load on the 120VAC branch circuit.

For example: One of my amplifiers is rated for 200W@8omhs, 300W@4ohms, and 410W@2ohms. This is a 2 channel amplifier.
200x2=400W
300x2=600W
410x2=820W
If I then take those values and divide by 0.40 (for 40% efficiency for linear power supplies) I get 1000W, 1500W, and 2050W respectively.

On a 120VAC circuit that works out to 8.3A, 12.5A, and 17.1A respectively. Is this what the unit requires at full load with the different speaker loads connected? Or how else would I have to calculate this?

I know I will never hit these kinds of values. I just want to know how an amplifiers rated output for the different speaker impedances relates to what current it needs from the receptacle to do that.
Yes your calculations are correct though you can expect between 45% to 50% efficiency figures at max power. Amps and power supplies get more efficient when driving full load (assuming NOT overload).

basically always remember whatever power delivery the amp specs to deliver to a known impedance, must be divided by the eff of the amp to determine if their is enough available wall power to deliver it.

If you have a 7CH amp rated at 400wpc x 7 (into 4 ohms) = 2,800 watts, you will need 2800/.45 = 6,222 watts of power from the wall or 51 amps of current at 120Vrms to deliver it on a continuous basis! Its NOT gonna happen.

Just know how the manufacturer is specifying power. It is also a function of load impedance. Then back calculate that power to determine if it's even possible.
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
billnchristy said:
Is the 15a limitation the reason there are no high current home amps? Being a former car audio installer I am used to running my sub amp at 1ohm mono, but it just doesnt seem possible or probable for home purposes.
My car amp is a monobloc, used to drive dual 10" subwoofers wired in parallel. They are both 4 ohm dual voice coil subs. Wired in parallel, the amp (as many car audio amps) will see a 1 ohm load. The amplifier is a class d, but must use current limiting, as the wattage values don't double as the resistance halves. The voltage is pretty consistant at 14 volts.

Power @ 4 OHM 625 watts (RMS) x 1
Power @ 2 OHM 924 watts (RMS) x 1
Power @ 1 OHM 1200 watts (RMS) x 1
Battery Voltage Range 10.5-15.0
Crossover Range 40Hz - 200
 
MACCA350

MACCA350

Audioholic Chief
Buckeyefan 1 said:
My car amp is a monobloc, used to drive dual 10" subwoofers wired in parallel. They are both 4 ohm dual voice coil subs. Wired in parallel, the amp (as many car audio amps) will see a 1 ohm load. The amplifier is a class d, but must use current limiting, as the wattage values don't double as the resistance halves. The voltage is pretty consistant at 14 volts.

Power @ 4 OHM 625 watts (RMS) x 1
Power @ 2 OHM 924 watts (RMS) x 1
Power @ 1 OHM 1200 watts (RMS) x 1
Battery Voltage Range 10.5-15.0
Crossover Range 40Hz - 200
Unless Ohms Law has been debunked:

15V @ 4ohm = 56W and 3.75A
15V @ 2ohm = 112.5W and 7.5A
15V @ 1ohm = 225W and 15A

And this doesn't take into account amp efficiency. Am I missing something? are these not laws of physics?

cheers:)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
MACCA350 said:
Unless Ohms Law has been debunked:

15V @ 4ohm = 56W and 3.75A
15V @ 2ohm = 112.5W and 7.5A
15V @ 1ohm = 225W and 15A

And this doesn't take into account amp efficiency. Am I missing something? are these not laws of physics?

cheers:)
You know you are right, nothing can exceed the numbers you quoted. I am sure he made a typo.
 
JoeE SP9

JoeE SP9

Senior Audioholic
It's about time someone questioned the power ratings some claim for car stereo equipment. I fully realize that with special alternators you can get lots of current out of a cars electrical system. Even so, some of the power claims are just not really believable. You can only get so much out of 15 volts.:D
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
You don't even need 15 volts to get that type of power. JL amps work with as little as 11 volts.

Check out the specs on this JL Audio amp. JL is about as honest as any car audio mfg. out there. Notice the power rating cuts out at 250 Hz.

http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_amps.php?amp_id=259

Rated Power 12.5 V: 480 W RMS x 1 @ 4 ohm
800 W RMS x 1 @ 2 ohm

Rated Power 14.5 V: 640 W RMS x 1 @ 4 ohm
1000 W RMS x 1 @ 2 ohm

THD at Rated Power: 12.5V: <0.08% THD, 20 Hz - 250 Hz

14.4V: <1% THD, 20 Hz - 250 Hz


Here's another example:

http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_amps.php?amp_id=221

Rated Power: 1000 W RMS @ 1.5 ohm - 4 ohm (11V-14.5V)
THD at Rated Power: <0.05% @ 4 ohm
 
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MACCA350

MACCA350

Audioholic Chief
Buckeyefan 1 said:
You don't even need 15 volts to get that type of power. JL amps work with as little as 11 volts.

Check out the specs on this JL Audio amp. JL is about as honest as any car audio mfg. out there. Notice the power rating cuts out at 250 Hz.

http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_amps.php?amp_id=259

Rated Power 12.5 V: 480 W RMS x 1 @ 4 ohm
800 W RMS x 1 @ 2 ohm

Rated Power 14.5 V: 640 W RMS x 1 @ 4 ohm
1000 W RMS x 1 @ 2 ohm

THD at Rated Power: 12.5V: <0.08% THD, 20 Hz - 250 Hz

14.4V: <1% THD, 20 Hz - 250 Hz


Here's another example:

http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_amps.php?amp_id=221

Rated Power: 1000 W RMS @ 1.5 ohm - 4 ohm (11V-14.5V)
THD at Rated Power: <0.05% @ 4 ohm
OK, I'll bite.

14.5V @ 1000W, you'll need 69A @ 0.21ohm to do it:confused:

cheers:)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Buckeyefan 1 said:
You don't even need 15 volts to get that type of power. JL amps work with as little as 11 volts.

I followed the link and read the manual. The 12.5V was the d.c. power supply voltage. At the amplifier output, the a.c. voltage is 40V or higher. That, combined with the fact that class D amplifiers are highly efficient, those high output numbers can be achieved without contradicting physics and electrical principles.
 
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gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
You don't even need 15 volts to get that type of power. JL amps work with as little as 11 volts.
Oh Boy. The power supply in the amp steps up the amps rail voltages high enough to achieve the power into the loads you are specifying.
 
MACCA350

MACCA350

Audioholic Chief
PENG said:
I followed the link and read the manual. The 12.5V was the d.c. power supply voltage. At the amplifier output, the a.c. voltage is 40V or higher. That, combined with the fact that class D amplifiers are highly efficient, those high output numbers can be achieved without contradicting physics and electrical principles.
OK, that explains it. So what do they sacrifice to step up the voltage?

cheers:)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
MACCA350 said:
OK, that explains it. So what do they sacrifice to step up the voltage?

cheers:)
For subwoofer applications, not much would be sacrificed, class D works fine. As you cited before, to get that kind of power, the current would be very high even at efficiency as high as 90%.

http://mobile.jlaudio.com/pdfs/6892.pdf

If you read page 3 of the manual, they are talking about minimum 4 AWG wire for the power supply. As far as how they step up the voltage, its all in the power supply design, nothing much new.
 
MACCA350

MACCA350

Audioholic Chief
Yes but you can't change 12V into 40V out of thin air, something has to give. I see they demand a 100A fuse, I assume the sacrifice is a much higher than normal current draw.

12V @1000W is 83A

Our house, 240V @ 15A can deliver 3600W at the standard outlet. To get that amount of power out of a 12V system you'd draw 300A:eek: arc-welding, anyone:D

cheers:)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
MACCA350 said:
Yes but you can't change 12V into 40V out of thin air, something has to give. I see they demand a 100A fuse, I assume the sacrifice is a much higher than normal current draw.

12V @1000W is 83A

Our house, 240V @ 15A can deliver 3600W at the standard outlet. To get that amount of power out of a 12V system you'd draw 300A:eek: arc-welding, anyone:D

cheers:)
Well, they are not talking about 3600W, just 1000W or so. Many car alternators can in fact deliver over 100A at 12V or slightly higher voltage. No doubt the current draw will be high but most music don't demand 1000W continuously, nor can any normal people withstand that kind of SPL inside a car of normal size.
 
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