Thai concrete house...speaker advise please

[Bahtman]

Why not buy speakers made in Thailand? The nOrh brand makes fabulous looking and sounding marble speakers.

Numerous emails and calls to the shop have resulted in no response. Absolutely zip.
I wasn't to keen on the design anyway and the reviews were mixed, so I've moved on.

Thanks for the lead anyway.

 

[Bahtman]

Either of those AVRs is probably capable of giving you hearing damage through the JBLs.

How much are the Denon x4000 over there? It will do just as well for less than the Marantz alternatives (at least over here), any savings can go towards your second sub.

 

[Bahtman]

Ya know when I build this house I pre-wired in the walls and under the tile for a 9.2 system that would included future rears and front highs (only mountable at about 9' high) but based on a comment by DD . "and when the LCRs are properly setup, you most likely will not care about height channels...I don't."

I'm rethinking the AVR rig and am on the fence on getting a 9.2 for future proof or not, or just drop to 7.2
save a bit of money, and I can bi-amp the fronts until such time I decide to add more speakers.

Does any of this make sense?

Just thinking out loud here.

 

[DD66000]

Ya know when I build this house I pre-wired in the walls and under the tile for a 9.2 system that would included future rears and front highs (only mountable at about 9' high) but based on a comment by DD . "and when the LCRs are properly setup, you most likely will not care about height channels...I don't."

I'm rethinking the AVR rig and am on the fence on getting a 9.2 for future proof or not, or just drop to 7.2
save a bit of money, and I can bi-amp the fronts until such time I decide to add more speakers.

Does any of this make sense?

Just thinking out loud here.

Bi-amping is really useless, unless one disconnects the passive XOs in the speakers and adds an active, external XO.

After 2 1/2 decades of HT 90% of all systems are 5.1, and the majority of the last 10% is 7.1. Most of what I have seen, people with H/W channels, have poor quality LCRs or poorly placed or both.
My prediction is ATMOS is going to be a bust like 3DTV.
DTS:X, maybe will fly...DTS version of everything always seems to be better than the Dolby version.

The word from Gene is ATMOS via bouncing the sound off the ceiling (from speakers sitting on top of the main 4) is a total farce. And how many people really want to have to add a minimum of 4 ceiling speakers to the 5, 6, 7 speakers they already have? Or even can?

 

[Bahtman]

I haven't the slightest interest in ATMOS at this time and probably never will and I'm going to drop down to a 7.2 as it now makes more sense. Thanks for the insight.

The only HK I can find here is the AVR 370 selling for $1015 vs Amazon at $1000.00.
Marantz 6009 7.2 @ $1200.00 vs Amazon @ @1300.00+
Denon X 4100 7.2 @ $1780.00 vs Amazon at $1200.00.

So the HK and Marantz are very competitive with the Denon’s costing quite a bit more.


So I gave you a price on the 500 series JBL's at about the same price as posted on Amazon.


To add to the mix, recently posted on the JBL dealers site here is another "promo". He’s also a Denon.


Denon AVR-X5200W with the JBL 500 system noted above for about $5900.00


Denon AVR-X5200W with a JBL LS package noted below for another 3k.
2-LS-80 towers
2-LS-40 surrounds
1-LS center
1-120P sub


Any insight as to what’s the JBL LS series are all about?




Thanks

 

[DD66000]

The LS series has been around for a few years now. I've only seen pics via the internet. Seems I remember seeing mixed reviews.
Having auditioned the 570s last spring, I would go with the 500 series.
But if you have the chance of auditioning both, then do so and make your own conclusions.

As for AVRs, I've had HK & Marantz and a Denon stereo receiver. The Denon stereo receiver left something to be desired, imo.
Denon, Marantz are now more/less the same company (D&M Holding)
Some prefer Denon to Marantz; some Marantz to Denon...I'm the latter.

I think my son has the sr6007, I was quite impressed with it, when I ran the setup. And listening to music (JBL L890)
With these you get Audyssey, HK has its own autoEQ as does Pioneer.

The HK 370 (3700) is their current top-o-line AVR which has more power than my 3600(previous year model), more features.
With HK you also get Logic 7 processing...when I stream movies I use either L7 or DTS neo 6. rarely use Dolby.
The HK, Marantz and Denon AVRs you mentioned all have full 7.1 pre-outs, if you ever wanted to add power amps.

 

[Bahtman]

I've never owned a Denon but did have a Yamaha RX-V1 (loved it) and an old 200# Marantz back in the day.
I also had an Onkyo way back when but don't remember either model numbers. With the problems I've read about the HDMI on the Onkyo, I was steering clear of them.

I've also read mixed reviews on the LS and know they're an older model, but they sure look nice.
I'm heading back to the US in a few weeks, what's your take on a decent BD player?. They're all Thai made here so I was looking to get one in the US.

Thanks for hangin' with me here.

 

[DD66000]

As far as I know, the LS might not even be sold in the US. They were in Europe, and it would seem you can get them in Thailand.
I don't know about Yamaha AVRs, but I had an integrated amp in the '80s.
I thought it was good with my JBL L212s, until I bought a Sony DPL AVR and then a Marantz 880 DD/DTS AVR.
Then is was obvious how much the Yamaha amp was over driving the HF...the 880 was much smoother HF. And in an all concrete structure, that thought needs to be remembered.
With my Parasound pre-amp, power amp, HK Citation amp and HK AVR its all good.

 

[Bahtman]

The Marantz 6009 or 7009 is probably the way I'll be going.
I'll audition the 500 series in BKK on the way to the states next month.
They're calling the 580's "new" so I guess the 590's haven't arrived yet.

They do tend to be a bit lagging here in many areas.

I'll look at the LS's as well if I can. They're costing more bit also have bigger drivers.


Thanks DD

 

[Bahtman]

Why not buy speakers made in Thailand? The nOrh brand makes fabulous looking and sounding marble speakers.

After 2 weeks I finally got a message back from nOrh in BKK.
He's only got 3 sets in stock, one being green.

"Buy now from stock as prices are going up soon"

Honestly, I thing I'll be going with the more traditional styling.

 

[Bahtman]

And while I'm here if you could look at my newly posted thread ..
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/relocating-sound-stage-and-your-thoughts-pls.93766/.

I'm not all that familiar with these forums and posting here or there, but since I have your attention, your input is appreciated.

Mike

 

[Bahtman]

I recall a certain chapter in Toole's book discussing how listeners tend to cluster into separate camps when it comes to the things they value in terms of soundstage/image. Many seem to prefer some degree of envelopment, achieved by speakers with wide (but smooth) off axis performance with significant involvement of local acoustics. Others preferred a more clearly delineated and precise image, achieved via near field listening and other methods to absolutely minimize the room's influence. One of the other methods is careful setup of controlled directivity speakers to ensure uniform coverage for the listening area (this is more of a theater or large venue way to think of things, not what most home audio buffs subscribe to). If you look at it like this, you should be able to make sense of how speakers with different polar response will interact with the local environment.

Tonal response is the sort of thing that can be eq'd for. I like a nice warm house curve type response myself.

Your near-field-ish/less-room direct response, thanks to your room layout, will result in a rig that will allow you to really swim into the mix. The room is lively and you will likely hear it, so you will certainly benefit from cluttering up the place, using acoustic panels, etc.

Thanks Ski,,,
Just got back from an extended stay in the US and have opened this thread and general discussion on possible gear with great enthusiasm.

Since back I've picked up a 65" display, have been in contact with Brian at GIK about possible issues and have been in touch with dealers in BKK.

One deals in JBL's and Denon exclusively and sent me a sheet on their promos, with the X 4100w and X 5100w coming in at a fair price point. Their package deals w/speakers, are of course all JBL's.

There's just so many conflicting recommendations out there.
"Biggest towers possible for fronts...towers in all positions, 5.1 only, towers in front would be an overkill." and on and on, and I can understand that everyone has their own opinion.

The MLP is 14+' from both surrounds, and centered at 11' (adjustable) from fronts and rears. Towers in all positions makes a bit of since to me, at least for the surrounds (I may not even add rears.)
Then there's the issue of single or multiple subs. I'm pre wired at 2 locations but could always go wireless.

While I have your attention, I've noticed most subs using RCA input connectors while I've run 12ga. Any issues there or are there adapters?

Anyway I appreciate your knowledge, time and advice.

Thanks again

 

[DD66000]

Hello again,
the subs are usually connected using coax sub cables.
But they can be connected via 12ga speaker wire to the high level inputs. And for that size room you do need two subs, which also provides a flatter FR to all seats.

I would say 14 ft to the surrounds are a bit much...if you used full range towers, then maybe. I had my rears 13 ft behind the seat.
I just moved them forward 5 ft. So they are only 1 ft farther than the SS.

 

[Bahtman]

Hello again,
the subs are usually connected using coax sub cables.
But they can be connected via 12ga speaker wire to the high level inputs. And for that size room you do need two subs, which also provides a flatter FR to all seats.

I would say 14 ft to the surrounds are a bit much...if you used full range towers, then maybe. I had my rears 13 ft behind the seat.
I just moved them forward 5 ft. So they are only 1 ft farther than the SS.

Hello again yourself.

I'm really stuck with the distance to the surrounds, that's maybe why someone suggested towers.
("full range" being the same as fronts??? Maybe just a smaller profile???)

I can't run wire from the AVR to them as it's all tile, and if I did use towers, will floor covering be needed as the same as the fronts?
I'm still trying to locate some rugs to put down, maybe the trip to BKK will prove fruitful.

The only place in my town that is a large seller has the towers on tile but the room as so many acoustic panels everywhere, it's crazy.

I'll be off to BKK next week

 

[DD66000]

I you recall, I have the same physical situation...concrete/tile.
To wire my 4 surrounds I bought the white plastic self stick cable tunnels. Stick them in place, run the wires through. Makes for a very clean look, especially if you need to run two or more wires across a given area.

Most certainly, getting some area rugs to place between the LCRs/seating is a must. I am using an 8ft Ø coiled rope looking rug as a pad and have 3 rectangular rugs side-side over top. And waiting for a 4th one to show at the store.

Because of the size of your room, I would seriously think about buying horn loaded compression driver speakers...the JBL Studio 5 series comes to mind..or if you really had a wad of cash to spend, the JBL M2 Reference Monitors for the mains.

If you bought a pair of 590s for the L/R you could then use either the smaller 580s or 570s for the surrounds. All 3 are towers.
My son and I auditioned the 570s (dual 5.25") when I was in Japan last year...just a beautiful soundstage...just missing the low bass, as there was no sub. But the 590s have dual 8", 580s dual 6.5"

To get my rear surrounds in play, I had to buy telescoping TV wall mounts...no rear wall. So I mounted them on the side walls and them pull them out/rotate when they're needed.

Another thing you might want to think about (b/c of concrete/tile) is getting a miniSDP which has Dirac Room Correction.
I downloaded the Dirac Stereo Suite to my Macbook, connected to the P7 pre-amp, now I have a flat FR from 25 hz on up.

If I would want to upgrade to the 8 channel suite, I need to find a 7.1 usb DAC.
Or buy the miniDSP 8 and connect it to the AVR pre outs and/or P7.

 

[Bahtman]

I used similar low profile elec. raceways under the tile to the surround and sub locations. The rears were run overhead laid in the soffit and I can bring them down the same way if I decide to run rear towers. Wouldn't be noticeable at all. I seriously considering a suggestion to use towers all around for the fronts surround and rears due to the room size. The JBL"s are on the short list but with the room already being lively, horn loaded like the JBL's and Klipsch might be a bit bright. LBL 580 and 530 here only along with the LS series. Kef Q series has a multi level line as well and go quite deep using 4x8" Unfortunately, no do-overs here and auditioning in BKK in an acoustically conditioned room does me little good.

I'll look into the Dirac Stereo Suite but was planning on using the AVR's room correction.
I'll be looking for area rugs and possible some acoustic materials while in BKK cuz' sure I'll need something.

Thanks again.

 

[DD66000]

JBL horn speakers, imo, are far superior to Klipsch, which make my ears bleed.
Go lightly on the acoustic panels and forget bass traps.
I was watching a few Audioholics online youtube videos last night.
One about placing the speakers properly in the room, and the other about using too much room treatments. I whole heartily agreed with both.

There is a huge difference between these various AVR auto EQs and the Dirac. When listening to music thru the AVR (BD concerts and youtube) I turn off the EQ....otherwise it just sucks the life out of the music.

Listening to music via the Parasound P7 pre-amp from my Mac, the Dirac is enabled. And there is NO compression of the music at all.
When I get the proper mic (UMIK-1) for the Dirac and a 7.1 usbDAC, then I'll upgrade the Dirac to the full 8 channel suite.
MiniDSP, in Hong Kong, sells stand alone units with Dirac onboard, and the UMIK-1. So Dirac can be downloaded to a computer or get the miniDSP box.

If you go to dirac.se, you can download a free 14 day trial stereo suite.
But you do need the mic....I used a voice mic, which rolled off the top end at 10k...using the UMIK-1 will take the FR to 20K.
And with the Dirac, you can adjust the FR to what ever you like, to fit that concrete environment. So you have no worries, if you go with horns, which will place the sound right at the seats.

 

[Bahtman]

JBL horn speakers, imo, are far superior to Klipsch, which make my ears bleed.
Go lightly on the acoustic panels and forget bass traps.
I was watching a few Audioholics online youtube videos last night.
One about placing the speakers properly in the room, and the other about using too much room treatments. I whole heartily agreed with both.

There is a huge difference between these various AVR auto EQs and the Dirac. When listening to music thru the AVR (BD concerts and youtube) I turn off the EQ....otherwise it just sucks the life out of the music.

Listening to music via the Parasound P7 pre-amp from my Mac, the Dirac is enabled. And there is NO compression of the music at all.
When I get the proper mic (UMIK-1) for the Dirac and a 7.1 usbDAC, then I'll upgrade the Dirac to the full 8 channel suite.
MiniDSP, in Hong Kong, sells stand alone units with Dirac onboard, and the UMIK-1. So Dirac can be downloaded to a computer or get the miniDSP box.

If you go to dirac.se, you can download a free 14 day trial stereo suite.
But you do need the mic....I used a voice mic, which rolled off the top end at 10k...using the UMIK-1 will take the FR to 20K.
And with the Dirac, you can adjust the FR to what ever you like, to fit that concrete environment. So you have no worries, if you go with horns, which will place the sound right at the seats.

Ya know it's pretty strange that I watched the same videos last night as well. Good info on acoustics and side wall reflections, which I don't have.
I also noticed from the video on speaker placement, no floor covering under the mains.

I'm not even thinking about Klipsch speakers due to the horn mounts. Many folks have described them as bright, and I'm already there with this ro

 

[Bahtman]

Whoop's what happened here? Pre-mature insertion
Lets start over, had a power outage last night.


Ya know it's pretty strange that I watched the same videos last night as well. Good info on acoustics and side wall reflections, which I don't have.

I also noticed from the video on speaker placement, no floor covering under the mains.


I'm not even thinking about Klipsch speakers due to the horn mounts. Many folks have described them as bright, and I'm already there with this room.

I appreciate you hangin' here with me but it's getting over my head. For the last 3 mo. or more I've been reading and watching as much as possible about home theater and trying to absorb all the tech info as much as possible and it's a bit daunting. Now, ask me about pools and I can hang with the best of um'.

I went to the Dirac site a few days ago upon your first mention and seen the free trial and their full suite but honestly DD, like I said. it's overwhelming. Maybe down the road after I get the system setup, I come back to this area to do a bit of tweaking, but for now, I just want to get some decent components at a fair price and get the setup installed.

Your input on the JBL's have lead me to look at them a lot closer than I ever would have. Reviews, spec', excel spreadsheets and related date has really been my life here for quite awhile, more than I care to admit. As I said b4, I tend to over complicate things, but I don't want to make a mistake and get a setup that sounds like poop.

I'm down to the JBL's and possible KEF's, MA's or PSB's all available in BKK, where I hope to get to next week.
I'm planning on dropping the high's for now and do a 7.2, and thinking about towers in all positions due to input from others based on the size of the room and speaker distances. Might fill the place up nicely.

The room is what it is what it is, and I'm talking with Brian at GIK for his input.

While your here...what's the best way to splice/extend the 12ga. wires I have. Bananas?, twist um and tape um?

See ya soon and thanks again.

Mike

 

[DD66000]

Did you notice on the video, they did have an area rug between the LCRs and seating..there is no reason the rug needs to be under the speakers...and unlike your and my situations, their floor was wood, not tile...you may not think it, but that is a big difference.

I do have the front edge of my rugs right up to the sub/center, wanting to cover as much of the tile as possible.
Also, they have a 100" screen, so they are sitting farther back then I do with my 60"...If I had a 100" I would be moving my seats and rugs farther back.
Of coarse, the perfect environment for HT is an enclosed rectangular room...something I had the last 12 years I lived in NV.
And where I lived 2 years ago, it was wide open like you have now.
That was good for developing a huge soundstage, but not good for bass, even with two 15" subs.
Although, it took much longer to dial in this room, I much prefer it to that other room.

There are dual banana plugs that allow you to connect two wires.
I am actually using one for one surround wire that was short.
You insert one wire into the holes on the side and tighten down and the other wire w/ banana plugs will fit into the ends of the dual.

View attachment 16143

Here is how I have my LCRs/TV/sub setup.