TC Sounds LMS Ultra 5400 18"? any thoughts welcome

[johnnyfire617]

So I have decided to engage in the DIY program of Home Theater. I am looking to start with the sub and work my way up the Frequency Ladder. Anyone have suggestions thoughts on this sub or could I do better, this beast looks to have a mean bite.
TC Sounds LMS Ultra 5400 18" DVC Subwoofer 293-666

 

[lsiberian]

So I have decided to engage in the DIY program of Home Theater. I am looking to start with the sub and work my way up the Frequency Ladder. Anyone have suggestions thoughts on this sub or could I do better, this beast looks to have a mean bite.
TC Sounds LMS Ultra 5400 18" DVC Subwoofer 293-666

It's the best sub driver in the world. If you are looking for a small sealed box it fills the bill. If you want to port it you will need at least 2 P-Rs maybe 3.

Do you have a space requirement? If not a horn build would be a better choice.
Creative Sound - Product Details


You might also prefer a multi-sub setup.

 

[timoteo]

Thats not a joke when he called it the best driver in the world. That truely is a absolute beast of a driver! Just ask warpdrv (member here) he is running 8 of the TC 5400 Ultra 15" & lovin life!!

If i were to go the DIY route that would be the driver id use hands down. Id go with dual 18" sealed subs so i could even out the room response. Those could handle almost any room thrown at them.

So yeah that is a decent driver....

 

[lsiberian]

Thats not a joke when he called it the best driver in the world. That truely is a absolute beast of a driver! Just ask warpdrv (member here) he is running 8 of the TC 5400 Ultra 15" & lovin life!!

If i were to go the DIY route that would be the driver id use hands down. Id go with dual 18" sealed subs so i could even out the room response. Those could handle almost any room thrown at them.

So yeah that is a decent driver....

Well you could always get a rotary sub.
http://rotarywoofer.com/:D

 

[Matt34]

They have had some QC issues as of late. Mounting holes between the basket and magnet not matching up like mine.

 

[Nuance AH]

Thats not a joke when he called it the best driver in the world. That truely is a absolute beast of a driver! Just ask warpdrv (member here) he is running 8 of the TC 5400 Ultra 15" & lovin life!!

You're spot on - totally true. They are, in my opinion, the best of the best.

They have had some QC issues as of late. Mounting holes between the basket and magnet not matching up like mine.

Unfortunately this is also a completely true statement. I would hope things have been straightened out by now, though.

Speaking of Warpdrv's setup, he lives literally 2-3 miles from me, and I've heard those monsters multiple times. Let me just say this: I'll likely never hear anything better, period. Of course, I've never experienced rotary...

 

[johnnyfire617]

It's the best sub driver in the world. If you are looking for a small sealed box it fills the bill. If you want to port it you will need at least 2 P-Rs maybe 3.

Do you have a space requirement? If not a horn build would be a better choice.
Creative Sound - Product Details


You might also prefer a multi-sub setup.

Glad the sub is a winner in the forum hands down. Just for reference I was actually planning on making a single ported monster for this sub. I will have plenty of space but what do you mean by needing 2 P-Rs maybe 3? I have thought about the multi setup but trying to stay inside a reasonable budget for now. Thanks for the Link a good read and more knowledge.

 

[timoteo]

PR = Passive Radiator

Instead of a port or hole the box uses 2 or 3 radiators. A radiator is the cone & basket of a driver minus the magnet. You dont run power to them. They work off the enclosure pressure created by the active or powered driver. They use the energy of the back of the active cone & give you more output & lower tuning just like a port would. The enclosure is sealed but acts like a ported box

 

[templemaners]

It's because the T/S parameters on the 5400 lend themselves better to PR setups vs. ported (since the port needed is huge). And, depending on how much extension you want, 2 PR might not be enough, hence the need for a 3rd. If you're using 3 of TC Sounds 18" PR, that's almost enough cash for another 5400 driver.

Of course, where they really shine is sealed in a small box. I think for the cost of 1 driver + 3 PR, I'd rather get 2 drivers and put them in sealed boxes (provided I'm willing to spend on some serious wattage amp wise).

 

[johnnyfire617]

PR = Passive Radiator

Instead of a port or hole the box uses 2 or 3 radiators. A radiator is the cone & basket of a driver minus the magnet. You dont run power to them. They work off the enclosure pressure created by the active or powered driver. They use the energy of the back of the active cone & give you more output & lower tuning just like a port would. The enclosure is sealed but acts like a ported box

Thanks for the break down never heard or seen of that technique until now sweet always learning.

 

[johnnyfire617]

It's because the T/S parameters on the 5400 lend themselves better to PR setups vs. ported (since the port needed is huge). And, depending on how much extension you want, 2 PR might not be enough, hence the need for a 3rd. If you're using 3 of TC Sounds 18" PR, that's almost enough cash for another 5400 driver.

Of course, where they really shine is sealed in a small box. I think for the cost of 1 driver + 3 PR, I'd rather get 2 drivers and put them in sealed boxes (provided I'm willing to spend on some serious wattage amp wise).

Looks like i have some decisions to make may have to stick to one sealed for now seems like the most economical without drawing back from the performance and can always add extras later. Thanks for the Advice.

 

[templemaners]

Two LMS-R 15's also look like a very intersting choice for the price of one LMS-U. Doesn't look quite as capable as the LMS-U (lower sensitivity, higher Le, less Xmax), but splitting the load between 2 subs vs 1 makes me go "hmmmmm...."

Edit: Here's a link talking about that exact situation:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1392997

 

[lsiberian]

Glad the sub is a winner in the forum hands down. Just for reference I was actually planning on making a single ported monster for this sub. I will have plenty of space but what do you mean by needing 2 P-Rs maybe 3? I have thought about the multi setup but trying to stay inside a reasonable budget for now. Thanks for the Link a good read and more knowledge.

If you want a monster box go with the Tapped Horn subs. It is much more efficient and lower cost than the LMS driver and has similar performance

A trio horn can produce nearly 120db at 20 hz, horns are used for large venues and organ emulation.
Creative Sound - Product Details is only 189 bucks. You could get 10 of those per single ported LMS driver.

You could get 4 if you wanted and corner load them. The kits would cost less than the LMS driver and could be driven with a single IPR or Honestly I see the drivers as overpriced.

That said tapped horns can be overwhelming to the new builder.

 

[Nuance AH]

What would be better, a tapped horn or that LMS 5400 18 in a TL enclosure?

 

[Nuance AH]

Two LMS-R 15's also look like a very intersting choice for the price of one LMS-U. Doesn't look quite as capable as the LMS-U (lower sensitivity, higher Le, less Xmax), but splitting the load between 2 subs vs 1 makes me go "hmmmmm...."

Edit: Here's a link talking about that exact situation:
Comparing dual LMSR 15 to a single LMSR Ultra. - AVS Forum

Duals is awesome, but the distortion is higher with the R 15 (though probably below the threshold), and depending on how you place them you might need to add more elaborate EQ; perhaps one that includes individual phase, delay and crossover adjustments. I think it's worth it, but that one is ultimately up to you. Even better, get two LMS5400s!

 

[GranteedEV]

What would be better, a tapped horn or that LMS 5400 18 in a TL enclosure?

Neither, and both.

The answer, is an LMS 5400 in a Tapped Horn:

Here a guy did a Maelstrom Tapped Horn.. i think this is his bedroom:

Personally, maybe it's just my lack of experience here, but i find it hard to believe a single LMS-5400 will outperform a pair of Mach V Pi-18s dollar for dollar.

 

[Irvrobinson]

^^ That is sick.

 

[GranteedEV]

^^ That is sick.

Sickening, maybe:

IMG_5565.mp4 video by airsoftsniperm4 - Photobucket



As far as the issues with tapped horns, aside from size, the main one is bandwidth. For reference though, I believe a tapped horn will actually be likely smaller than an equivalent front loaded horn (although the FLH would on paper have better performance.. not sure about audibility).

A tapped horn will only give you around 2-3 octaves of usable performance, the rest will be resonant. That tapped horn operates from around 15hz to 60hz and does need EQ to get flat. Probably better suited to a setup with some pro audio bass drivers handling from 60hz to 120hz... it's a bit convoluted IMO and the box size requirements don't help.

A vent will give bandwidth up to about 1/2 an octave below the vent resonance, which is usually around 150hz or higher.

Compared to that, a well-stuffed TL or a decently low Q sealed box will give you bandwidth as high as the driver can go. The sealed box will lack bandwidth down low without EQ and thus likelyhood of thermal compression though. THe lower the Q, the easier the driver will move so less thermal compression and easier extension, but also more driver motion so power handling gets risky.

My Mal-X is sealed with a Q of .55 or so. While I've never put it through a window flexing test, I think it's all the low distortion output i'd need for my tastes. The problem is that i don't have an easy room (it's almost all concrete except one wall and the open floorplan behind it), and so i get a few response dips. I really want to add two more subs to smooth things out.

Out of all of the above, sealed is still the best way to get infrasonics below 10hz, because it won't sacrifice bandwidth or become dipole below tuning.

That's my suggestion to OP... get what you wanna get, but get a few drivers within your budget rather than just one killer sub. it'll make things easier IMO. Four Mach V Pi-18s, for example, or maybe Four CSS SDX15 Mk IIs if four LMS-5400s is too pricy. Then seal them up, as that will keep box size small, and then equalize.

 

[DS-21]

Glad the sub is a winner in the forum hands down.

I wouldn't say that. TC Sounds' build quality and attention to detail just aren't good enough for the prices charged, IMO. Which is a pity, because when they're well-sorted they're hard if not impossible to beat.

I had the predecessor to this sub (though I'm not sure if there are any differences beyond being made in San Diego then and China now). While it was a fine drive-unit, it was no better to my ears/face/chest than the Maelstrom-X Mk. I it replaced. So when they got scarce I sold it for a profit and didn't regret it one bit. And put the Mael-X in until I managed to find a good deal on IMO the best looking 18, Aurasound's NS18-992-4A.

Alas, the Mael-X (as well as my favorite 18, the Aurasound) isn't readily available right now. If were doing a DIY super-sub and could only choose from drivers currently available as new production, I'd use the JBL W15GTi "car" woofer, perhaps in a dual-opposed closed box, and mount it/them such that the ugly dust caps are hidden. Perhaps that will change if the CSS SDX15 Mk. II ever becomes a shipping product. Or perhaps not.

Why a 15? None of the current 18's are IMO good enough. The TC's have too many problems, and the other 18's have super-long coils, which means very high inductance. The Fi ones don't even seem to bother with effective shorting rings.

PS: Supersubs and blinds do not go together. If one is going to have significant ULF output, one really needs curtains/drapes.

 

[Nuance AH]

While TC Sounds attention to detail has suffered some, the performance has not from what I have gathered. I still say they are unbeatable regarding performance, specifically the LMS5400 18. To each their own, though.