Tapered Array Technology in Klipsch Center Speakers and Hearing Loss

[Timothy E Smith]

Hello all!

I have a hearing deficiency, and for me, intelligible dialogue requires CLOSED CAPTIONING so that I can follow the program or movie.

Does anyone out there have any A/B experience with Klipsch center channel speakers with the standard crossover for 2 way with the tweeter and/or 'Klipsch Tapered Array™ technology' that yields the below mentioned intelligible dialogue, or am I chasing a windmill?

Klipsch Tapered Array™ technology was included in a limited manufacturing run of 2.5 way center channel speakers in particular the RC-62 and the RC-52.

I guess the narrative in the product brochure,

"...operates both woofers at the lowest frequencies – maintaining the high output capability necessary for good center channel performance – but only one operates all the way through the midrange to where the tweeter takes over. This eliminates acoustic interference between the woofer outputs, a flaw in conventional speaker designs that can severely impair sound quality at the sides of the listening area"

indicates that the Tapered Array may be beneficial for me, but I wish some comments before acting.

The center and a sub are the final 2 speakers to acquire and I am being overly careful with my limited resources.

Any help is most welcome.

Tim Smith HT nut

 

[TheWarrior]

Hello all!

I have a hearing deficiency, and for me, intelligible dialogue requires CLOSED CAPTIONING so that I can follow the program or movie.

Does anyone out there have any A/B experience with Klipsch center channel speakers with the standard crossover for 2 way with the tweeter and/or 'Klipsch Tapered Array™ technology' that yields the below mentioned intelligible dialogue, or am I chasing a windmill?

Klipsch Tapered Array™ technology was included in a limited manufacturing run of 2.5 way center channel speakers in particular the RC-62 and the RC-52.

I guess the narrative in the product brochure,
indicates that the Tapered Array may be beneficial for me, but I wish some comments before acting.

The center and a sub are the final 2 speakers to acquire and I am being overly careful with my limited resources.

Any help is most welcome.

Tim Smith HT nut

Hi!

You are wise to the marketing propaganda, and rightly so, skeptical!

Your problem is two fold:
-If you've been listening to 4 channel surround sound WITHOUT a center, you are automatically cutting out speech, by design. Surround sound mixing has 80% of all sound going to the center channel. So your hearing may not be quite so bad!

-While bad speakers are just that, room acoustics and speaker placement have a much larger effect on speech intelligibility.

Please provide us room dimensions, seating distances, and a pic if you can to understand your furnishings, wall/floor coverings etc. All of this is more important than buying 'the worlds greatest speaker' - To put it in perspective...

Please also tell us what speakers/electronics you currently have so that we may make compatible suggestions.

....and great sound for all!

 

[Seth=L]

At first I thought this was a thread attributing the use of Klipsch speakers to hearing loss.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Troubles understanding human dialog while watching TV/movies in homes is a VERY common problem.
I also have some minor hearing loss and often rely on subtitles to follow the movie, especially British ones.... BUT due to sleeping baby requirements I switched recently to watching my tv with headphones and no longer have any troubles understanding speech even from UK programs

What does it tells me - nothing that wrong with my herding, but everything to do with my speakers and room acoustics. The issue is that human voice, particularly adult male is ranges from 85-180hz - right there in terrible spot (aka below 200hz) where room modes take biggest effect.

To test this is very simple - stand next to the wall and clap your hands - you'll hear an echo - then this echo reaches your ears - it's makes it harder for ear/brain to properly decipher it.

Fixing it is not really easy, but sound absorption panels right behind speakers should be a good start.
You best bet is to consult the experts.

Few sources: http://www.atsacoustics.com/, http://www.gikacoustics.com/ even home depot has some:
http://www.homedepot.com/b/Building-Materials-Insulation-Acoustic-Insulation-Acoustic-Panels/N-5yc1vZc64x

 

[Timothy E Smith]

Thanks Warrior, Seth=L & BoredSysAdmin :I have taken several photos of my apartment and the layout, dimensions of my home theater room and share them below:

Apartment is single floor partially below ground and frame construction, it is 2 Br with 2nd br bing my home office and MBR has son's XBox 360 and games, dinette area, modest kitchen, walk in pantry, full bath, walk in closet and LR that is about 17' x 10' and is shown in the pics, HT system is a recently acquired Vizio 48" Smart HDTV, Sony 550 AVR, Sony Blu-Ray (awesome), pair of new RB61s Cherry finish on top of cherry 18" speaker stands, center (for now) is a Boston Acoustics 1995 vintage, Center sat - 7 with 1 5¼" woofer, smallish tweeter and no port but does have a matching 5¼" radiator, (this is the next item to be Klipsch), a pair of recently acquired Klipsch ss-1 surrounds with 2 horn tweeters and a single woofer aimed 90 degrees toward the left and right listening positions, finished by a 12" non-ported sw-1 from Yamaha that will be replaced with the last Klipsch speaker. I stream NetFlix and YouTube along with Blu ray Netflix subscription. Floors are carpet, walls are flat painted wallboard, ceiling is stippled mud pattern and painted, windows have vertical blinds with shear scarves, furniture is predominantly leather and glass top tables. The surrounds are mounted on older Bose Acoustimas white sturdy stands fully extended above listener ear height.

Photo 1 Yes I have a center 5¼" Woofer and smallish tweeter
5¼ Radiator by Boston Acoustics Center Sat-7 sits on shelf below TV and
is angled 20 degrees up toward the sweet spot

Photo 2 base of 'L' in my living / dining area

Photo 3
Looking across back wall of listening area (kitchen wall)

Photo 4 Front left and right located either side screen center
toed in 20 degrees and 6' from center to right and 6' from center to left.
Speaker stands have only front pins installed to raise tweeters to ear level
at listening position

Photo 5 last bit of equipment to be replaced with Kilpsch, is a 2005 Yamaha 12" sub #SW1 acquired along with YSP 800 sound projector for $1,500 in 2005 and now has little or no value (gave to neighbor) will be giving her this sub when I acquire its Klipsch replacement.

 

[theJman]

Apartment is single floor partially below ground and frame construction, it is 2 Br with 2nd br bing my home office and MBR has son's XBox 360 and games, dinette area, modest kitchen, walk in pantry, full bath, walk in closet and LR that is about 17' x 10' and is shown in the pics, HT system is a recently acquired Vizio 48" Smart HDTV, Sony 550 AVR, Sony Blu-Ray (awesome), pair of new RB61s Cherry finish on top of cherry 18" speaker stands, center (for now) is a Boston Acoustics 1995 vintage, Center sat - 7 with 1 5¼" woofer, smallish tweeter and no port but does have a matching 5¼" radiator, (this is the next item to be Klipsch), a pair of recently acquired Klipsch ss-1 surrounds with 2 horn tweeters and a single woofer aimed 90 degrees toward the left and right listening positions, finished by a 12" non-ported sw-1 from Yamaha that will be replaced with the last Klipsch speaker.

So you have a 20 year old mismatched center pointed at your knees and wonder why you can't hear dialog? I think you've answered your own question.

 

[Timothy E Smith]

20 years old, yes, mismatched, yes, question was and remains: "is there a discernable difference in intelligibility between the tapered array style center and the standard fixed crossover point", I realize it is a mismatch, I am humble enough to ask for help before I buy, I will see that the mismatch comes to a positive end, lastly the reason for my question on this forum is that since I had my last Klipsch system I suffered a stroke and bacterial meningitis and lived to tell about it, a minor miracle, you get life flighted to the Cleveland Clinic or within 45 minutes of touchdown you'll be laying on the OTHER side of the turf and see if that doesn't affect your perspective on life each day.

 

[KEW]

One easy test to do is to swap an rb-61 with your center, and see what that does for sound.
Put the RB-61 on a stool or whatever to get it at proper height (or aim it). Don't hesitate to block your view of the TV - this is just a test to get some idea how much swapping speakers might do for you. For me, the Klipsch add a little crispness to dialog, so I expect they would help; but whether they are really a solution is a different story.

PS - I have an RC-52 in my HT system. I found a little more on this in their product brochure:

Klipsch Tapered Array™ technology operates both woofers at the lowest frequencies – maintaining the high output capability necessary for good center channel performance – but only one operates all the way through the midrange to where the tweeter takes over. This eliminates acoustic interference between the woofer outputs, a flaw in conventional speaker designs that can severely impair sound quality at the sides of the listening area.

http://images.klipsch.com/RC52_635042119023650000.pdf

My guess is that they would not have eliminated this feature in current models (if that is a fair interpretation of this being a limited run) if it was a substantial benefit to sound quality.

That said, if there is any type of listening test I can do with this center to help you, I'm happy to do it!

 

[highfigh]

20 years old, yes, mismatched, yes, question was and remains: "is there a discernable difference in intelligibility between the tapered array style center and the standard fixed crossover point", I realize it is a mismatch, I am humble enough to ask for help before I buy, I will see that the mismatch comes to a positive end, lastly the reason for my question on this forum is that since I had my last Klipsch system I suffered a stroke and bacterial meningitis and lived to tell about it, a minor miracle, you get life flighted to the Cleveland Clinic or within 45 minutes of touchdown you'll be laying on the OTHER side of the turf and see if that doesn't affect your perspective on life each day.

Glad to see you made it through, even if the hearing damage is part of the deal.

Assuming you have been to an audiologist, would you want to post the results of the tests? That could help in finding a solution.

Is there a way to move the center channel speaker closer to your listening location? That way, you'll be less likely to hear the reflected sound and it may have more "focus". The differences in response between close range and across the room can be substantial.

 

[TheWarrior]

@Timothy E Smith

Great! Ok lets start with some things that won't cost money. These will also tell us what you are hearing and therefore be able to make better recommendations if new speakers are needed:

-Switch your receiver to its Stereo (Front L + R only) With some weight on the base of those speaker stands, you will be able to raise up the speakers to a more ideal height; the space between the horn and the woofer will be at or below ear height (adjust to preference). Play with spacing between speakers, toe in (less is more) and make notes of your preferences. Use familiar content to listen, keep repeating!

-Try something similar with your TV, to raise it up above the center channel which should be at least resting on the top shelf, but may also benefit from additional height. (The ideal is L, C, R have their tweeters at the same height) Don't forget to switch back to surround sound so the Center is used!

Blocks of wood, phone books, any of that will work fine!

The results of this will tell if new furniture/stands are a more wise investment, than a whole new speaker system. I won't be surprised if you prefer having the Center Channel in use, in which case an upgrade may be recommended, but if moving it up helps, and you are happy with the overall sound, save your money!

 

[theJman]

20 years old, yes, mismatched, yes, question was and remains: "is there a discernable difference in intelligibility between the tapered array style center and the standard fixed crossover point", I realize it is a mismatch, I am humble enough to ask for help before I buy, I will see that the mismatch comes to a positive end, lastly the reason for my question on this forum is that since I had my last Klipsch system I suffered a stroke and bacterial meningitis and lived to tell about it, a minor miracle, you get life flighted to the Cleveland Clinic or within 45 minutes of touchdown you'll be laying on the OTHER side of the turf and see if that doesn't affect your perspective on life each day.

It's quite clear that my post was not mocking you or the challenges you face. I was merely pointing out your issues hearing the center were probably due to something other than ailments, that your placement and choice of product was causing a lot of it. How you flipped that into meaning something completely different beyond me, but for sure no offense was meant or implied.

 

[TheWarrior]

It's quite clear that my post was not mocking you or the challenges you face. I was merely pointing out your issues hearing the center were probably due to something other than ailments, that your placement and choice of product was causing a lot of it. How you flipped that into meaning something completely different beyond me, but for sure no offense was meant or implied.

Let it go, dude!

And not run off a guy just looking for help!

 

[Timothy E Smith]

Glad to see you made it through, even if the hearing damage is part of the deal.

Assuming you have been to an audiologist, would you want to post the results of the tests? That could help in finding a solution.

Is there a way to move the center channel speaker closer to your listening location? That way, you'll be less likely to hear the reflected sound and it may have more "focus". The differences in response between close range and across the room can be substantial.

Thanks 'highfigh', appreciate your thoughts, TEST RESULTS on my dominant (right) side the hearing loss is 100% (Left) side test was 40% loss of hearing predominantly in the lower frequencies (I played bass in a rock band in the 70's and owned a recording studio in the 80's, screwed up my hearing big time, the Audiologists report from The Clinic confirmed both in a hearing lab studio test, I was fitted after rehab with a B.A.H.A. (Bone Anchored Hearing Aid) clips to a Titanium screw 'Keyhole' (male) that resonates sounds using my skull to 'vibrate' the sounds active on my deaf side, so that what remains of my hearing on the Left side has at least a moderate chance of hearing on behalf of the deaf side here is a YouTube clip of the procedure and methodology.

I have been saving money each month (after getting all the bills from the copays in the illness) paid off and begun assembling a 'Wish list' of components, gradually acquiring them to replace my 15yr old Yamaha YSP 800 Sound bar and SW-1 sub, I am asking others (like you, thanks) for help in this as I have no recent (last 10 years) experience in selecting and installing components of an HT, the last HT I assembled was based on S-Video and Laser Discs (dinosaurs?). So now I have purchased a pair of NEW RB61ii's, put them (cherry) on matching Sonus wood stands (cherry & black) at 18" (top of stand) tweeter height is 35" (to center or horn), acquired a pair of SS-1 surrounds (dual horn, single woofer) keyhole mounted on old Bose tube stands at their fully extended height above the listening position (46" to the center of the horns) and am anxiously awaiting the arrival of my most recent acquisition, an RC-52ii that was originally purchased in late 2014 and is 'open box new', warranty intact, my theory of the "Klipsch Tapered Array™ technology operates both woofers at the lowest frequencies – maintaining the high output capability necessary for good center channel performance – but only one operates all the way through the midrange to where the tweeter takes over. This eliminates acoustic interference between the woofer outputs, a flaw in conventional speaker designs that can severely impair sound quality at the sides of the listening area", I am satisfying this question by also acquiring an RC-52 Used by a fellow who had upgraded to the RC-62 and the RC-52 was sitting unused in his closet. My plan is to A/B these two centers and find out which is the most complimentary speaker for my system and will sell the one that does not win the race.

So my question now to finish the system is which sub? I live in an apartment, wall neighbors on 2 sides and above, love the kick and tight bottom end of a Klipsch sub but how much is too much? The regular powered or the supercharged seems to be the only difference in subs of the 10", 12" and 15" with the power ( I believe that I read the 'lows' require more watts due to headroom and special effects in films). Almost leads me to believe with my living arrangement a higher powered 10" sub would be the 'cat's whiskers' to finish off my new Klipsch HT System. Any insights welcomed and I am curious about room treatment and remotes next month...... Tim Smith

 

[TheWarrior]

@Timothy E Smith

Good plan for the centers!

I think sub recommendations are really based on what you think your neighbors will tolerate, and the budget? And if you don't mind my asking, where are you located?

 

[Timothy E Smith]

@Timothy E Smith

Good plan for the centers!

I think sub recommendations are really based on what you think your neighbors will tolerate, and the budget? And if you don't mind my asking, where are you located?

Thanks 'theWarrior' I appreciate your confidence in my A-B experiment - just for certainty I have asked my 12 yr old son to help in this test and both center
Will be here this weekend so the test is imminent and his ears being 100%, I trust his acuity. I live in a suburb of Youngstown Ohio called Boardman a straight line from Cleveland to Pittsburgh it is half way between and near the Pa border. How about you please? Tim

 

[TheWarrior]

Thanks 'theWarrior' I appreciate your confidence in my A-B experiment - just for certainty I have asked my 12 yr old son to help in this test and both center
Will be here this weekend so the test is imminent and his ears being 100%, I trust his acuity. I live in a suburb of Youngstown Ohio called Boardman a straight line from Cleveland to Pittsburgh it is half way between and near the Pa border. How about you please? Tim

Just keep in mind different speakers have different sensitivity, so for a given input, one speaker will sound louder than the other, and you will need to level match. (as closely as you are able, it won't be perfect)

I live in a very poorly named town next Alpharetta GA (Cumming), and have impatiently waited for the town to be renamed as, believe me, there is no history here worth remembering! (and much of it should be left in the past!)

 

[Timothy E Smith]

Thanks 'theWarrior' I appreciate your confidence in my A-B experiment - just for certainty I have asked my 12 yr old son to help in this test and both center
Will be here this weekend so the test is imminent and his ears being 100%, I trust his acuity. I live in a suburb of Youngstown Ohio called Boardman a straight line from Cleveland to Pittsburgh it is half way between and near the Pa border. How about you please? Tim

Whewwww that's a 'rough' name to write on applications and forms, sorry dude, is a name change in the works? Or are you 'chasing the windmill' as I am/was? Good luck with that....will advise how test proceeds over the weekend and in the meantime thanks for your guidance. Tim

 

[TheWarrior]

Haha, there was talk of it, but I think there's still a few "the south will rise again!" type folk that are keeping it stagnate.