Tankless Water Heater

[Tarub]

My old conventional tank type water heater has been leaking on & off from above and smoldering the pilot light every now and then for at least 3 months now. In other words it needs replacement soon. I have been thinking to replace it with tankless water heater ever since. My primary reason is space. If I can have that big tank 50 gal water heater remove and replace it with a small tankless one, I can park my other truck in the garage pretty easy with easy access to the shelving around.
I had some phone quotes of how much parts and labor it will cost me. They said around $2500 to $3000 parts and labor. But I will have a $150 refund from the gas company and 30% tax credit from the government on all expenses for going green. Most likely around $800 to $1000 refund. But still way too much compared to a conventional one. And it requires a certified installer to have one installed(for warranty and refund purposes). So, me installing it like what I did to my old water heater is out of the question.
Any of you guys have this installed at your house? I know, in Europe this is what they use because of lack of space in their homes.
What are the pros and cons? Does it really save money in the long run? I dont want to have it installed and within 5 years then it needs replacement again....I will sacrifice for the space. My old tank type one is now close to 15 years of service.

 

[sawzalot]

Pros- I am sure it will save money in the long run as it will only make hot water when needed, also you will never run out of hot water when the demand calls for it, that is a big plus in my eyes.I like the idea of saving space as well.
Some cons are , if you have a hard water (well water usually) these units will wear out quicker than usual, maybe a water conditioner would alleviate this some.

 

[yepimonfire]

Year long showers!!!!!!!

 

[sawzalot]

Year long showers!!!!!!!

Too much time on your hands ?

 

[yepimonfire]

actually i spend 5 minutes in the shower max.

 

[just-some-guy]

i researched these. from what i was told, by plumbers, contractors and HVAC guys. they are good if you hardly use hot water = 1-2 people that are not home much. or. if you use it a lot = 6 people family, etc. if hot water is used throughout the day, but not a LOT, then a regular hwh is the way to go.

 

[TLS Guy]

My old conventional tank type water heater has been leaking on & off from above and smoldering the pilot light every now and then for at least 3 months now. In other words it needs replacement soon. I have been thinking to replace it with tankless water heater ever since. My primary reason is space. If I can have that big tank 50 gal water heater remove and replace it with a small tankless one, I can park my other truck in the garage pretty easy with easy access to the shelving around.
I had some phone quotes of how much parts and labor it will cost me. They said around $2500 to $3000 parts and labor. But I will have a $150 refund from the gas company and 30% tax credit from the government on all expenses for going green. Most likely around $800 to $1000 refund. But still way too much compared to a conventional one. And it requires a certified installer to have one installed(for warranty and refund purposes). So, me installing it like what I did to my old water heater is out of the question.
Any of you guys have this installed at your house? I know, in Europe this is what they use because of lack of space in their homes.
What are the pros and cons? Does it really save money in the long run? I dont want to have it installed and within 5 years then it needs replacement again....I will sacrifice for the space. My old tank type one is now close to 15 years of service.

Here is a link to Northern Lights. On page four there is an excellent article on the pros and cons of tankless water heaters.

It is not true that tankless heaters are universal in Europe, in fact I would say tanks are still more common, with the tankless variety confined to smaller apartments.

 

[mtrycrafts]

My old conventional tank type water heater has been leaking on & off from above and smoldering the pilot light every now and then for at least 3 months now. In other words it needs replacement soon. I have been thinking to replace it with tankless water heater ever since. My primary reason is space. If I can have that big tank 50 gal water heater remove and replace it with a small tankless one, I can park my other truck in the garage pretty easy with easy access to the shelving around.
I had some phone quotes of how much parts and labor it will cost me. They said around $2500 to $3000 parts and labor. But I will have a $150 refund from the gas company and 30% tax credit from the government on all expenses for going green. Most likely around $800 to $1000 refund. But still way too much compared to a conventional one. And it requires a certified installer to have one installed(for warranty and refund purposes). So, me installing it like what I did to my old water heater is out of the question.
Any of you guys have this installed at your house? I know, in Europe this is what they use because of lack of space in their homes.
What are the pros and cons? Does it really save money in the long run? I dont want to have it installed and within 5 years then it needs replacement again....I will sacrifice for the space. My old tank type one is now close to 15 years of service.

My first question would be: how long did your old WH last?
2nd: how much to replace it with say a 2" foam insulated one? Can you do it yourself?
With these two numbers and your real cost of a tank-less one you know how many WH tanks you can have before breaking even, simplified of course.
You can also add external insulation blanket to reduce standby losses.

Do you have a recirculating pump for near instant hot water? Doesn't work with tank-less.

Do you have long runs? Tank-less will still waste water while it gets hot at the faucet/ shower head. Then, if you alter flow level, temperature may be affected.

I had the displeasure of showering in such a home in Europe temperature was wondering all over the place; you like some cold soaks at time?

I would not recommend them unless it is over a sink or shower and maybe not even then, too $$$$

 

[Rickster71]

I run into commercial plumbers a lot, and I always ask about tankless water heaters; because I really wanted one.
While they do have many good points, unfortunately the bad points out weigh the good.

The plumbers I know, don't recommend them.
Parts are hard to come by in a timely manner, and you will inevitably need parts.
Sawzalot mentioned the minerals in the water, that's a big problem with these units.
EDIT: Almost forgot; they got so many callbacks with those units, they now refuse customers' requests to install them.

 

[itschris]

I run into commercial plumbers a lot, and I always ask about tankless water heaters; because I really wanted one.
While they do have many good points, unfortunately the bad points out weigh the good.

The plumbers I know, don't recommend them.
Parts are hard to come by in a timely manner, and you will inevitably need parts.
Sawzalot mentioned the minerals in the water, that's a big problem with these units.

This!

My neighbor and I had been talking about it, he ended up with about a year ago... hated it.. and replaced it about 6 months ago with a new gas heater like mine. His problems where similar to others... the water was either hot or not... no in between. Things like shaving where the water go on and off was a really big problem plus it took a long time nearly twiice as long for the water to get hot in his shower.

 

[Tarub]

Year long showers!!!!!!!

Way to go Yepispedo!!!!! You are always impressive!!

 

[sawzalot]

Here is a link to Northern Lights. On page four there is an excellent article on the pros and cons of tankless water heaters.

It is not true that tankless heaters are universal in Europe, in fact I would say tanks are still more common, with the tankless variety confined to smaller apartments.

Excellent link, I especially like the part on electrical upgrades needed for the non-gas unit, Whoooaaa How Much Money ? I guess if you don't go with gas for the Tankless you might just as well forget it ! I think the water saving shower heads with the 50 gallon tank wrapped in insulation is a no brainer now.
Besides the only place we need to make more space in is probably the HT and there's no hot water heaters in there

 

[TLS Guy]

Excellent link, I especially like the part on electrical upgrades needed for the non-gas unit, Whoooaaa How Much Money ? I guess if you don't go with gas for the Tankless you might just as well forget it ! I think the water saving shower heads with the 50 gallon tank wrapped in insulation is a no brainer now.
Besides the only place we need to make more space in is probably the HT and there's no hot water heaters in there

Yes, that is a good monthly magazine we get from our power coop, Beltrami Rural Electric.

They are very up front with articles about the real cost to consumers of wind power. We are into it big time, but we generate most here in the summer, and we have to sell it at a loss on the grid. This is law. This cost is a line item on our bill. In the winter when we need the power in very cold weather the wind usually does not blow! They also do a good job of exposing a lot of this carbon credit BS.

We can see how much power we are getting from wind at any given time on their website. We can also track our energy use over time and day by day on their site.

Our telephone coop is also stellar. I have to say they are light years ahead of the big utility and communication companies. Our whole network will be 100% high speed fiber by the end of the year, to every residence and business.

I already have fiber to right outside my residence. The final hookup guy will be here any day.

They put through the cable very fast with the most amazing technology with minimal excavation. It really was stunning. What they did disturb the repaired obsessionally and replanted the road verges, and even come back and water it. It is just amazing.

The power coop and the telephone coop, share the construction and installation company to save costs, which is brilliant.

X-cell energy I had in Grand Forks were total morons, and so were the phone company and Internet providers.

 

[FudBuster]

I installed the premium Takagi 87% efficient tankless gas water heater about 8 years ago. I have a family of four with tons of laundry, dishwashing cycles and showers/baths that go along with a typical household. I spent right at $1K for the unit and stainless steel "B" vent required for the install. A licensed HVAC friend of mine and me installed it. Even with allowances for inflation and profit margins, $2500 - $3000 is insane even for a premium unit like mine.

As for the performance and any service issues, there have been none, zip, nadda, zero issues in any of the yearly inspections of the unit. It hasn't even needed to be cleaned. Every time it gets opened up, it's nearly as clean as the day I took it out of the box. With regard to performance, I can be in the shower and the Mrs start the washer with hot water for a load of whites and I don't feel a thing. Ran the same test starting the dishwasher while in the shower and zero temperature drop in the shower with HOT water filling the dishwasher.

As for the time it takes for the water to heat up, it all depends on the quality of the unit. For example, you need to look carefully at the flow rate that will trigger the unit. Mine will trigger with a relatively low flow rate so all of us have learned that when wanting hot water, you only open the faucet slightly until the water is warm or hot and then turn it up. Which in the end, works out about the same as letting the water "get warm" coming out of a stored tank somewhere. For the sometimes hot/sometimes cold issue, I would suggest that's a case of an undersized unit rather than any quality or control issues.

The bottom line.... I save HUGE amounts of gas not having to keep 50 gallons of water heated 24/7. My water usage if it's gone up at all, is now due to the fact that I can take a LONG hot shower whenever I desire one. And to me, it's worth every single penny even if I didn't save anything on the gas usage which I do.

Just my $0.02....

 

[mtrycrafts]

This!

My neighbor and I had been talking about it, he ended up with about a year ago... hated it.. and replaced it about 6 months ago with a new gas heater like mine. His problems where similar to others... the water was either hot or not... no in between. Things like shaving where the water go on and off was a really big problem plus it took a long time nearly twiice as long for the water to get hot in his shower.

It seems that these units like a constant demand for it to work properly. Wastes a lot of water this way

That older commercial with a large family never running out of hot water must have been with one shower in the home and all just lined up and the water ran continuously

 

[mtrycrafts]

... I think the water saving shower heads with the 50 gallon tank wrapped in insulation is a no brainer now.
...

I had 3 adults and 2 kids with a 40 gal tank, no real issues

 

[mtrycrafts]

I installed the premium Takagi 87% efficient tankless gas water heater about 8 years ago. I have a family of four with tons of laundry, dishwashing cycles and showers/baths that go along with a typical household. I spent right at $1K for the unit and stainless steel "B" vent required for the install. A licensed HVAC friend of mine and me installed it. Even with allowances for inflation and profit margins, $2500 - $3000 is insane even for a premium unit like mine.

As for the performance and any service issues, there have been none, zip, nadda, zero issues in any of the yearly inspections of the unit. It hasn't even needed to be cleaned. Every time it gets opened up, it's nearly as clean as the day I took it out of the box. With regard to performance, I can be in the shower and the Mrs start the washer with hot water for a load of whites and I don't feel a thing. Ran the same test starting the dishwasher while in the shower and zero temperature drop in the shower with HOT water filling the dishwasher.

As for the time it takes for the water to heat up, it all depends on the quality of the unit. For example, you need to look carefully at the flow rate that will trigger the unit. Mine will trigger with a relatively low flow rate so all of us have learned that when wanting hot water, you only open the faucet slightly until the water is warm or hot and then turn it up. Which in the end, works out about the same as letting the water "get warm" coming out of a stored tank somewhere. For the sometimes hot/sometimes cold issue, I would suggest that's a case of an undersized unit rather than any quality or control issues.

The bottom line.... I save HUGE amounts of gas not having to keep 50 gallons of water heated 24/7. My water usage if it's gone up at all, is now due to the fact that I can take a LONG hot shower whenever I desire one. And to me, it's worth every single penny even if I didn't save anything on the gas usage which I do.

Just my $0.02....

Interesting, thanks.
Do you remember how much gas you used before and after this, say in the summer time when house heating most likely is not on the bill?

I have a 40 gal unit and use 1/2 therm per day when no home heating is needed, 2 people.

 

[lsiberian]

I think this is the same as any other device. If you get a well-engineered well-built one you will be in love, but if you get a dud you will be throwing it out of the house in frustration. Whatever you get. Get something that's built right.

From a financial standpoint you are better off taking the extra cash and paying off debt with it or investing it. It would take you a couple of decades to even break even and that's assuming you have low interest rates. I'd call them a luxury item not a cost saving device in your case. I'm thinking you'd rather be luxurious in the theater room. So I'd say get the tank one.

 

[FudBuster]

Interesting, thanks.
Do you remember how much gas you used before and after this, say in the summer time when house heating most likely is not on the bill?

I have a 40 gal unit and use 1/2 therm per day when no home heating is needed, 2 people.

Well, in fairness we also replaced an aging furnace with a 90%'er at the same time. So our drop in usage was substantial. Our gas budget went down nearly 40% (between the new tankless and furnace) when natural gas was skyrocketing. It has continued to remain fairly static over the last several years as natural gas has continued to rise. Obviously it's hard to say what you might save.... but probably not as much as a family of four. Three females under a single roof produce an INCREDIBLE amount of laundry. And, we rarely eat out so cooking is done every day (gas appliances) as well. My guess is our usage (and thus savings) would be a lot higher than yours.

Another REALLY nice thing is in the mornings during the school year, all four of us can shower/bathe in short order without having to "wait" for the water to get hot. It took nearly an hour and a half in the mornings with the tank (if not longer) by having to wait between showers/baths for the water to heat back up. And whoever was last.... usually got luke warm at best. Now, we can all go back to back to back and have all the hot water we want. The four of us can be in and out of the bathroom in 30 to 40 minutes. Hell.... that alone has made it worth every penney I spent.

What I was REALLY worried about was the increased water usage that everyone was talking about even back then. But, like I said, I bought the proper sized unit for a family of four with outstanding flow rates. My unit will kick on with just a trickle of water. Others, need a higher flow to "get going." Do I have to "wait" for maybe 10 to 15 seconds longer to get "hot" water?.... yes. But, with the low flow rate, I'm using hardly any water before it gets hot. Probably the same as I did with the tank and opening up the faucet and waiting for the hot water.

As for shaving like someone mentioned earlier, shave in the shower.... it's better for your skin since the steam produced in the shower softens your whiskers considerably making for less skin irratation. Once again.... a properly sized unit will give you plenty of hot water whenever you need it, save money on natural gas usage and take up far, FAR less space than a huge tank.

By removing the big 'ol tank.... I was able to rework my return air drop to the furnace increasing my air flow capacity and giving me room to install a super high efficiency April Aire filter. The previous return air drop to the old furnace was barely large enough and was squeezed right up against the furnace causing turbulance right where the air "turned" to go into the furnace. There was also zero room for any type of higher efficiency flitration. Now, with the drop a bit farther away and a little larger, it allowed us to install turning vanes at the bottom of the R/A drop which smoothed out and thus increased my air flow considerably. So, my whole HVAC system (both heating AND cooling) operate with more efficiency.

Finally, I also installed a control pad that monitors incoming water temperature and allows me to micro manage my water temperature to the exact degree I want my hot water. Yeah, the big tanks have the dial on the gas valve, but you have no way of knowing exactly what your hot water temp is. Mine, if I want my hot water to be 123 degrees.... I set it at 123 degrees and that's what I get. We had some friends visiting a couple of months ago with little kids. I turned the water temp down to 115 degrees with a couple of pushes of a button to make sure they didn't scald themselves. Probably not all that necessary.... but it was nice for my own piece of mind.

 

[FudBuster]

I think this is the same as any other device. If you get a well-engineered well-built one you will be in love, but if you get a dud you will be throwing it out of the house in frustration. Whatever you get. Get something that's built right.

From a financial standpoint you are better off taking the extra cash and paying off debt with it or investing it. It would take you a couple of decades to even break even and that's assuming you have low interest rates. I'd call them a luxury item not a cost saving device in your case. I'm thinking you'd rather be luxurious in the theater room. So I'd say get the tank one.

I agree.... My initial interest was the need for space (needing to resize the return air drop to my furnace). But the more I researched it, the more I came to the conclusion that there was a lot of JUNK out there and to get any type of "value" I needed to purchase a quality unit. I went with the Takagi brand because they had been around for something like 50 years making tankless water heaters. They are in Japan where space is at an ultra premium. a "LARGE" home over there is ~ 900 - 1200 sq. ft. So everything is smaller.... making large storage tanks for hot water problematic at best.

I figured that buying from a company that had been doing it for that long might have a better handle on doing it right. So far, I've been rewarded in spades IMHO.

And no, I don't work for Takagi.