Symptoms of AV receiver running out of power?

[Am_P]

Hi all, I am new here and i am looking to learn a few things. I recently bought a used Yamaha RX-A3070 to explore atmos music. I added 4 elac upfiring atmos modules to my existing 5.2 setup, which consists of the Andrew Jones's Unifi 2.0 series speakers. I am running 9 channels with this receiver. I would like to not spend extra $ on an external amp, if i don't have to. However, i don't want to push the receiver too hard either. What are the symptoms one might hear when a receiver is running out of power, if no obvious clipping is heard? Could someone elaborate if you have been in a similar predicament?

 

[lovinthehd]

If you can't hear a problem why do you think there is a problem?

ps you might play around with something like this too http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html and share the details so we have something to work with

 

[Am_P]

If you can't hear a problem why do you think there is a problem?

I can't hear a problem thus far. But, what would a problem "sound" like?, i.e., if no obvious clipping is heard? In other words, is there something else that can be heard leading up to clipping?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yamaha is very stringent on the protection circuit. Your Yamaha will most likely SHUT DOWN in protection mode before you will actually hear any distortion from the clipping.

So the symptom will be the Shutdown, usually caused by extremely high volume.

In most cases, your Yamaha will be just fine powering all 9 speakers.

So I wouldn’t worry about it…unless you listen to extremely high volume.

 

[lovinthehd]

I can't hear a problem thus far. But, what would a problem "sound" like?, i.e., if no obvious clipping is heard? In other words, is there something else that can be heard leading up to clipping?

Bad sounds are your number one clue something's amiss. All depends on material you're listening to at what volume at what distance, how much overhead bla bla. However, sure, other things might show up but would rather suspect your speakers first or just perhaps setup as to audible issues. If worried about not having enough power certainly go for more power if you can to alleviate concerns, but go big if you're going to bother, at least 300wpc to upgrade from what you've got....and that's generally about a 3dB advantage. Personally I just wouldn't worry about it unless something was obviously amiss.

 

[Am_P]

Yamaha is very stringent on the protection circuit. Your Yamaha will most likely SHUT DOWN in protection mode before you will actually hear any distortion from the clipping.

So the symptom will be the Shutdown, usually caused by extremely high volume.

In most cases, your Yamaha will be just fine powering all 9 speakers.

So I wouldn’t worry about it…unless you listen to extremely high volume.

Ah, that is good to know! Thank you. It is running cool even when i am cranking it up thus far.

 

[KNOTSCOTT]

Every amp sounds a bit different when it clips, but it always sounds really bad. The sound will break up and distort badly...you'll know something is wrong.

Here's a video clip of an amp clipping

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Ah, that is good to know! Thank you. It is running cool even when i am cranking it up thus far.

Yes, The Yamaha RX-A3070/3080 runs like a Lexus LX-570: very reliable and cool with plenty of horsepower for 9 speakers. Haha.

Hopefully the new RX-A6 (9 speakers) and RX-A8 (11 speakers) will keep up the tradition.

 

[highfigh]

One good clue- what does the volume setting show? If it's near the maximum (100 or +15dB if it has that way of indicating the level), you're either running out of power or at least one setting isn't correct.If you don't have any 'headroom', you may not have enough power. Using speakers th at need a lot of power to reach a moderate listening level is a good way to find that the amplifier's power isn't adequate for the job. Whether you hear distortion depends on your ability to hear it and partially, the room's acoustics- in an acoustically 'live' room, the reflections will mask a lot of the distortion, especially when it's starting but if it hits double digits, it should be noticeable. Human hearing doesn't discern low amounts of distortion when complex signal waveforms are present but if pure tones are used, the distortion is easier to hear.

I wouldn't recommend sending pure tones to your speakers at high power levels, though- that can easily damage them.

 

[Am_P]

One good clue- what does the volume setting show? If it's near the maximum (100 or +15dB if it has that way of indicating the level), you're either running out of power or at least one setting isn't correct.If you don't have any 'headroom', you may not have enough power. Using speakers th at need a lot of power to reach a moderate listening level is a good way to find that the amplifier's power isn't adequate for the job. Whether you hear distortion depends on your ability to hear it and partially, the room's acoustics- in an acoustically 'live' room, the reflections will mask a lot of the distortion, especially when it's starting but if it hits double digits, it should be noticeable. Human hearing doesn't discern low amounts of distortion when complex signal waveforms are present but if pure tones are used, the distortion is easier to hear.

I wouldn't recommend sending pure tones to your speakers at high power levels, though- that can easily damage them.

With the receiver volume at -20 to -15db, it is loud enough that it is not comfortable at higher levels for me. I measure about 80 to 85 db on a spl meter at my listening location. No distortion is heard at these levels. I just have not cranked it up higher than that.

 

[highfigh]

With the receiver volume at -20 to -15db, it is loud enough that it is not comfortable at higher levels for me. I measure about 80 to 85 db on a spl meter at my listening location. No distortion is heard at these levels. I just have not cranked it up higher than that.

If you don't hear distortion at that level, I seriously doubt you would be able to measure much, if any- you have more than 10dB of headroom and if you divide the max output of the AVR by 10, you'll see that you're operating in the neighborhood of 2-3W/channel at the main speakers and less from the others.

 

[Pogre]

Every amp sounds a bit different when it clips, but it always sounds really bad. The sound will break up and distort badly...you'll know something is wrong.

Here's a video clip of an amp clipping

It doesn't clip at first so I was thinking "omg, my hearing is so bad I can't even hear the distortion!".

Then it started clipping and was obvious to me. Phew!

 

[Am_P]

If you don't hear distortion at that level, I seriously doubt you would be able to measure much, if any- you have more than 10dB of headroom and if you divide the max output of the AVR by 10, you'll see that you're operating in the neighborhood of 2-3W/channel at the main speakers and less from the others.

Before one hears distortion and clipping, can one hear compression? on bigger dynamic swings encountered with orchestral music and so on?

 

[highfigh]

Before one hears distortion and clipping, can one hear compression? on bigger dynamic swings encountered with orchestral music and so on?

If you hear compression, it's not from the amplifier if you aren't hitting the maximum power and at only a few Watts, the speakers aren't likely to be experiencing thermal compression. If any compression is audible, it's likely to be from the source or in the settings for the device that's streaming- have you checked the settings for the Yamaha? I would use the MusicCast app for that, under Advanced Settings.

 

[Am_P]

If you hear compression, it's not from the amplifier if you aren't hitting the maximum power and at only a few Watts, the speakers aren't likely to be experiencing thermal compression. If any compression is audible, it's likely to be from the source or in the settings for the device that's streaming- have you checked the settings for the Yamaha? I would use the MusicCast app for that, under Advanced Settings.

I heard some compression initially as i started cranking it up. This receiver has so many features/settings and it took me hours of digging around and narrowing it down to a ECO Mode feature they have. I turned it off and i have not been able to hear any compression since then, atleast to my ears. I bought it used. So, it appears that the guy i bought it from had been running it with ECO Mode on. I wonder if that's why he sold it to me for cheap thinking something was wrong with it. I only paid 500 bucks. However, I am sensing that this is not exactly a product targeted for new users and i am reading as much as i can about it.

 

[highfigh]

I heard some compression initially as i started cranking it up. This receiver has so many features/settings and it took me hours of digging around and narrowing it down to a ECO Mode feature they have. I turned it off and i have not been able to hear any compression since then, atleast to my ears. I bought it used. So, it appears that the guy i bought it from had been running it with ECO Mode on. I wonder if that's why he sold it to me for cheap thinking something was wrong with it. I only paid 500 bucks. However, I am sensing that this is not exactly a product targeted for new users and i am reading as much as i can about it.

You should look into how our hearing works- even our perception of how loud sounds are involves compression- it's easier to hear changes in SPL at lower to moderate levels than at higher levels. Eco mode may have affected this, but not at low to moderate levels- it's not needed and it doesn't operate audibly at those levels.

New users? No, it's really made for people who sell and install AV systems- that's the reason it has an RS232 port and lots of fine settings that most people would never think of changing.

FYI- if you really want to see the full setup menu, connect it to your network (wired is always best) and set up the network in the AVR- once that has been done, enter the AVR's IP address in your browser's search bar- if it's not an Apple router, it will be something like 192.168.1.xxx/settings or if it is an Apple router, it would be 10.0.1.xxx/settings- I prefer using a computer for setup, although the MusicCast app does work well.

 

[Pogre]

This thread does make me think about a question I've always had. What's going on when you have a weak signal going in and crank up the volume compensate? Can it clip even if it's not a high spl, but you have the volume pegged all the way?

*Edit: @PENG, I just noticed you were on recently. This is right up your alley.

 

[Am_P]

You should look into how our hearing works- even our perception of how loud sounds are involves compression- it's easier to hear changes in SPL at lower to moderate levels than at higher levels. Eco mode may have affected this, but not at low to moderate levels- it's not needed and it doesn't operate audibly at those levels.

New users? No, it's really made for people who sell and install AV systems- that's the reason it has an RS232 port and lots of fine settings that most people would never think of changing.

FYI- if you really want to see the full setup menu, connect it to your network (wired is always best) and set up the network in the AVR- once that has been done, enter the AVR's IP address in your browser's search bar- if it's not an Apple router, it will be something like 192.168.1.xxx/settings or if it is an Apple router, it would be 10.0.1.xxx/settings- I prefer using a computer for setup, although the MusicCast app does work well.

I have had a decent amount of exposure to 2 channel gear in the past. It is this type of atmos capable multichannel gear that i am very new to. With the ECO mode 'on', it sounded like, i wanna say there was some current limiting going on. I have a feel for what it sounds like with 2 channel gear. With Eco mode 'on', it is what the receiver sounded like on some orchestral music perhaps. But, i have the Eco mode 'off' now and it is now hitting like a mac truck.

I honestly didn't know receivers of this caliber existed. I have had a older entry level pioneer in the past for basic hometheater and movie usage paired very basic speakers. To be honest, music sounded lame on that setup. I very much subscribed to the thought process of the 2 channel world since then, where they tend to say that multichannel receivers suck and giant integrated amps are the way to go for hifi listening. It is like the the word 'receiver' is associated with mid-fi or low-fi perhaps. But, i stand corrected for now because this Yamaha paired with my new Elacs sounds several magnitudes better than my old setup. It is not even a comparison. Thanks for the info on the web interface. I have not gotten that far yet.

 

[Am_P]

This thread does make me think about a question I've always had. What's going on when you have a weak signal going in and crank up the volume compensate? Can it clip even if it's not a high spl, but you have the volume pegged all the way?

*Edit: @PENG, I just noticed you were on recently. This is right up your alley.

This brings up a question. This receiver has a "input trim" level for different sources, which can be adjusted anywhere from 0db to 6db. I currently have it set at 0db. I assume this is the input trim to the poweramp from the preamp sections. Should it be set at 0db or higher?

 

[Pogre]

I honestly didn't know receivers of this caliber existed. I have had a older entry level pioneer in the past for basic hometheater and movie usage paired very basic speakers. To be honest, music sounded lame on that setup. I very much subscribed to the thought process of the 2 channel world since then, where they tend to say that multichannel receivers suck and giant integrated amps are the way to go for hifi listening. It is like the the word 'receiver' is associated with mid-fi or low-fi perhaps. But, i stand corrected for now because this Yamaha paired with my new Elacs sounds several magnitudes better than my old setup. It is not even a comparison. Thanks for the info on the web interface. I have not gotten that far yet.

The way it's been explained to me, and makes sense, is that amplification is a very mature technology. The big players all have the same goal of transparency and low distortion output, and have that part of it figured out with most having such ridiculously low distortion numbers the differences are inaudible. Most amps when operated within spec with all else being equal should sound the same. There are some exceptions like tube amps or difficult to drive speakers, but for the most part, in my experience that's been the case.

Here's an interesting article that I like to link of a carefully set up dbt between some high dollar "audiophile grade" gear with fancy cables and an entry level setup using the same speakers with interesting results.

Matrix HiFi --> Blind testing high end full equipments

There aren't a lot of examples out there because proper DBTs are a pain to set up and get right, but I'm unaware of any that have had better than chance odds of listeners able to tell one from another.