Switching to LED light bulbs. Issues for Audio and HT.

TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I have recently switched over to LED lights. I changed 149 light bulbs about a month ago.

There are issues for HT and audio with these bulbs. Getting the right dimmers is essential.

First of all you need to be careful which bulbs you buy. Most available currently are not very good. The best reviewed are Fiet and TCP. I bought a couple of BR 40 Feit bulbs at Costco. These were pretty good, perhaps just a little orange, but good enough. The next issue is that no big box store would cooperate in getting the bulbs and above all number of bulbs required. So I dealt with Dakota Supply out of Grand Forks, who have a City Desk and Warehouse in Bemidji. They do not normally sell to consumers like myself, only trade. They extended to me excellent service. There were problems in that some short neck BR 30 were not dimmable as per the order and the wrong dimmers were ordered. This was corrected. I ordered all the bulbs from the TCP contractor grade.

Now LED bulbs come as dimmable, dimmable only with LED dimmer and non dimmable. Now LED bulbs do not dim at all well with incandescent dimmers. They don't dim much and flicker. So you need to change your dimmers.

Now LED bulbs and dimmers are known for many RF issues.

Lutron only recommend their Maestro LED dimmer in homes with high end audio and HT systems. I can confirm that.

The correct dimmers where installed this week.

I'm really pleased with the lights on the whole. The new dimmers work very well and there are no RF problems from the dimmers. They dim perfectly, there is no flickering and the lights do not change color as they dim and stay nice and white.

With the first Maestros of 9 years ago, I had massive RF problems. I worked closely with an engineer at Lutron to redesign the Maestro dimmer. It was impossible to totally eliminate the problem, and there was always a very slight buzz with your ear in a speaker, with any dimmer operating anywhere in the house.
These new Maestro LED dimmers do not have any RF problems, none. Now when I put my ear to a speaker I hear silence. I suspect that this is because the power handled by the dimmers in reduced by more than 80%

There have been the problems. I have had to fix six of the BR 40 lights now, as they would not make contact with the electrode in the can. Most people would conclude that they are faulty, whereas in fact they are slightly out of spec. It is the bulbs, as bulbs that work, work in any can. A bulb that does not work, will not work in any can, without my modification.

Fortunately the contact electrode takes solder. So I put a blob of solder on the six bulbs that did not work and this solved the problem

The new dimmable short neck BR 30 bulbs are a tiny bit longer than the ones they replaced. This did require modification of the cans.

These lights do give off significant RF interference right in the FM radio broadcast band. It is right across it. This is a problem world wide. So switching on the 8 BR 40 17 watt bulbs in the studio causes unacceptable static on FM. The FM Yagi Uda array is on the roof above the studio. The Quad FM downstairs also has static when the studio BR 40s are on. It is less as the bulbs are dimmed. The roof Yagi Uda array FM antenna is on the roof above the studio. This problem does cause noise. Further it causes trouble with the FM tuner downstairs supplied by the same antenna.

This interference is less with the new dimmers, in fact less than with no dimmer at all and much less then with the old dimmer, but still a problem.

Fortunately I have enough other lights in the studio, I do not have to have these lights on when listening to FM radio.

I have designed a circuit that if placed in every can would take care of the problem I think. I likely will do tests on this after I get the components.

Strangely, the 4 short neck bulbs in the studio, do not cause this problem at all. For this reason I think it might be worth changing out these BR 40 bulbs for ones of lower wattage.

Apart from these problems this project has been a huge success.

I much prefer the light from these TCP bulbs to incandescent. They give a light as close to daylight as makes no difference. With the new dimmers they dim all the way to practically no light. Many LED bulbs do not dim well and go red at low light I understand.

Vision is better with these bulbs, I think this is because there is no 60 cycle flicker. So fine print is crystal sharp, just like under day light.

Turntable enthusiasts need to note that you can not use a strobe to set turntable speed with these bulbs. So I kept my 15 watt halogen bulbs in the puck lights in my turntable cases.

The FM interference is a big problem. I understand from the UK is pretty much blots out DAB radio.

I further understand that the operating frequency was chosen with the FCC. I think this is further evidence the FCC want analog terrestrial broadcasting gone. By the way these bulbs totally blot out AM.

I replaced these bulbs as the old ones were stating to fail and incandescent replacements either not available, or if you can get them twice the price of a LED. If one bulb fails on a dimmer string you have to replace the lot.

Substantial energy saving. Looking at my metering on line it looks as if this change will save 4,300 KHH/ year.

When on the generator, and funnily enough we had a long power cut today, it frees up a lot of power for cooking for instance and AC in the summer.

I won't have to change any light bulbs, these should last at least 25 years. I think those on dimmers much longer. 12 dimmers were replaced by the way

These bulbs only get slightly warm and are robust, and make excellent trouble lights.

The cost of this was not insignificant, about 4.5K when all said and done. I consider this a good investment though.

Out electric cooperative have warned us to reduce power load, as the EPA do look set to reduce the hours and or time our three coal fired generators operate.

Last year I did a massive insulation project and designed a sophisticated control system for the ripple electric heat. I have spent nearly 10K on energy conservation in the last 2 years. I think I have cut energy consumption here by about 50% with these measures.
 
its phillip

its phillip

Audioholic Ninja
I changed nearly all of my bulbs to TCP and Feit LEDs sometime last year. None of mine are dimmable/on dimmer switches. Haven't had any issues so far :D
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
I swapped out the bulk of my bulbs out recently as well to some GE 40W equiv. LED bulbs as Target runs them on sale from time to time. I'm generally pleased with them in terms of light output and dimming quality versus the CFLs they replaced. Fortunately I didn't have 149 bulbs to replace :D
 
S

sharkman

Full Audioholic
Some of the problems with LED bulbs are that they run pretty hot, they beam, they are really silly expensive and of course the above mentioned radio interference. Recently at work they bought a bunch of the TCP brand bulbs as the Sylvania's were failing after 8 months, although this is in a 24/7 environment.
 
Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
You all ever try LED filament bulbs? Those are pretty nice in terms of color and light direction. Essentially the same as incandescent, IMO.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
.. as the Sylvania's were failing after 8 months, although this is in a 24/7 environment.
That's about 5700 hours, way shorter than advertised. Did you place try to use the warranty on them?
I got one replace no questions asked, a different brand.

I wondered about all that heat sinks on them, why would it get so hot.
 
SurvivalDad

SurvivalDad

Audioholic Intern
I can't stand those things. I haven't had one yet live up to an incandescent.

-------------------------
SurvivalDad
Father Time!
 
ellisr63

ellisr63

Full Audioholic
We have converted to LEDs for all the lights in our house and use Insteon Dimmer switches for them. They all dim just fine without any problems other than if you try to go to about 5% then some will flicker, but the level they start to flicker at is lower than I want anyway.
 
H

Hobbit

Audioholic Chief
I've picked up a some LED bulbs recently. I've had not problems. The one on my night stand is dimmable, albeit not as much as the incandescent was. LED bulbs are a little to pricey right now, but coming down slowly every time I look.

Honestly though, I like the current generation of CFLs. The cost is right, you can choose the color: warm for the bedroom, daylight for the office, bright white for the shop. Best of all, the newest generation of Utilitech and Sylvania (one's I get a Lowe's), are up to full brightness in seconds. CFL's have come a long way, the early ones had that green tint (that's the native color w/o correction) and took minutes to get to full brightness. They solved the color issues, but they were still taking a while to get full brightness, but now they work great all around. On top of that, I've had CFL's that I bought in the 90s that traveled the country with me and are still in use today.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
We have converted to LEDs for all the lights in our house and use Insteon Dimmer switches for them. They all dim just fine without any problems other than if you try to go to about 5% then some will flicker, but the level they start to flicker at is lower than I want anyway.
Well, technically, they all flicker. That's how they "dim", just turn it on/off at a different rate.

It's just that it becomes noticeable as the freq goes lower.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
I've picked up a some LED bulbs recently. I've had not problems. The one on my night stand is dimmable, albeit not as much as the incandescent was. LED bulbs are a little to pricey right now, but coming down slowly every time I look.

Honestly though, I like the current generation of CFLs. The cost is right, you can choose the color: warm for the bedroom, daylight for the office, bright white for the shop. Best of all, the newest generation of Utilitech and Sylvania (one's I get a Lowe's), are up to full brightness in seconds. CFL's have come a long way, the early ones had that green tint (that's the native color w/o correction) and took minutes to get to full brightness. They solved the color issues, but they were still taking a while to get full brightness, but now they work great all around. On top of that, I've had CFL's that I bought in the 90s that traveled the country with me and are still in use today.
Yeah, but the real problem with CFL is that they contain Mercury (Hg)!!!

When they burn out or break, you MUST treat them as HAZARDOUS MATERIAL, because they are indeed hazardous. You should not toss them in the trash, but need to take them to the local hazmat center.

I just love working with hazardous materials 2 feet above my head :eek:
 
H

Hobbit

Audioholic Chief
Yeah, but the real problem with CFL is that they contain Mercury (Hg)!!!

When they burn out or break, you MUST treat them as HAZARDOUS MATERIAL, because they are indeed hazardous. You should not toss them in the trash, but need to take them to the local hazmat center.

I just love working with hazardous materials 2 feet above my head :eek:
Agreed, and I have/had reservations about buying them because of this. It could be worse, I could have an old house with asbestos or lead paint...

I should also point out the home thermostat uses a mercury switch. Then there's the fish problem:eek:

A CFL has about 4mg or mercury, and these have:
  • Watch battery -- up to 25 milligrams
  • Thermometer -- up to 2 grams
  • Tilt thermostat -- up to 3 grams
Like CFL's, you're only exposed if they break, unlike fish which we eat.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I'm switching to LED bulbs one at a time as the old bulbs die out. :D

So far so good. ;)
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
Agreed, and I have/had reservations about buying them because of this. It could be worse, I could have an old house with asbestos or lead paint...

I should also point out the home thermostat uses a mercury switch. Then there's the fish problem:eek:

A CFL has about 4mg or mercury, and these have:
  • Watch battery -- up to 25 milligrams
  • Thermometer -- up to 2 grams
  • Tilt thermostat -- up to 3 grams
Like CFL's, you're only exposed if they break, unlike fish which we eat.
Yup.

Watch batteries don't concern me too much, due to how they are sealed up and metal. Really, same on the thermostat, doesn't seem likely to break.

CFLs are more likely to get broken, especially if you have rowdy children.

Hg thermometers, you really don't see much anymore. I have a couple in the lab, but mostly alcohol thermometers are the norm now.

Yeah, no escaping the Hg in fish. I do love sushi! But I don't eat it too often.

I would wager that most of the general public doesn't realize that CFLs need to be treated as hazmat. That is very concerning to me.
 
H

Hobbit

Audioholic Chief
Yup.

Watch batteries don't concern me too much, due to how they are sealed up and metal. Really, same on the thermostat, doesn't seem likely to break.

CFLs are more likely to get broken, especially if you have rowdy children.

Hg thermometers, you really don't see much anymore. I have a couple in the lab, but mostly alcohol thermometers are the norm now.

Yeah, no escaping the Hg in fish. I do love sushi! But I don't eat it too often.

I would wager that most of the general public doesn't realize that CFLs need to be treated as hazmat. That is very concerning to me.
If you have infants you may not want to leave watch batteries lying around. It might find it's way into their mouths....

Here's an interesting tidbit,

Another way to look at the mercury content of CFLs: reducing electricity consumption by using more efficient lights might help reduce the amount of mercury emitted into the atmosphere by coal-burning power plants, the biggest single source of mercury pollution in the air.

Also Lowe's and Home Depot will dispose of them for you.


from this article:

http://energyblog.nationalgeographic.com/2014/01/08/separating-myth-from-fact-on-cfls-and-leds-five-concerns-addressed/

Don't get me wrong, I believe LED lighting is the future. I just also believe that pricing is ridiculously high and will drop significantly over the next couple of years and these early versions will have a higher likelihood of infant mortality.

The technology and the offerings will significantly improve in the near future too. For instance, the 25w and 40w (eq) candelabra LED's are equivalent in length to their incandescent counterparts. Whereas, the 60w are so long that it makes look silly in a ceiling fan shade. The price of one of these 60W LEDs is the same as 4 CFL's that are a standard length (e.g. fit nicely in the shade/same length as the incandescents that came with the fan). The only small 60W eq LEDs available were very directional bulbs. I guarantee this will all change soon.

I picked up a two pack of 60w LEDs for under $8 at wally world recently. So far they work great and the light quality is beautiful. I like them so much that I grabbed another pack last time I was in the store. I expect pricing on all LED's to drop significantly in the very near future everywhere.
 
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