SVS PB10 or Mirage S12?

[learner]

Ok first of all let me thank you all for your suggestions in the past. My wife now hates me but I am oh so happy. I have the Athena Micra 6 system which I have now replaced the center with the As-C1 and added the B1.2's as my fronts and now have a 7.1 system. Well you know what is wrong with this picture? The small sub that comes with the Micra system, although very nice for the system it was designed for, is just now quite enough now.

I have sort of narrowed my choices to two sub choices. I have looked at both the Mirage S12 and the SVS PB10. Now the Mirage I can get for a few bucks less than the SVS (about $80-$90) and it is in the same family as my Athena's. The SVS is just so well reviewed that one can simply not ignore it at this pricepoint. What do you all think?

Now my room is 12 x 18 x 8 with two small doorways on one side that open up to a small room and one entry way about 5 feet wide that opens to my dining room an a hallway. I will be using my system for about 50/50 movies and music.
Suggestions? Comments?

 

[Sheep]

Its basically a toss up. The Mirage held its own against and VTF-3, although it was beaten by it. If the Mirage is cheaper, I would get it. It might not have the same extention as the PB-10, but it will hit 20Hz. Either way you'll have a fantastic sub. Its up to your ears.

SheepStar

 

[learner]

Thanks. I think I am leaning toward the Mirage. It will save me a few bucks and after researching reviews on it and the Energy 12.3(very similar) I dont think I would sacrifice any quality.

 

[Ron Temple]

What you sacrifice is performance below 25hz performance. Above 25hz the output starts to exceed the PB10.

 

[The13thGryphon]

What you sacrifice is performance below 25hz performance. Above 25hz the output starts to exceed the PB10.

What he said! Do you want low or loud?

Low (lower frequency extension - great for movie explosions and effects), go with the SVS... loud (pretty self explanitory), go with the Mirage.

Personally, I want BOTH low and loud... so I'm going to go with two SVS PB-10s.

Whichever you choose... ENJOY!

 

[Sheep]

What he said! Do you want low or loud?

Low (lower frequency extension - great for movie explosions and effects), go with the SVS... loud (pretty self explanitory), go with the Mirage.

Personally, I want BOTH low and loud... so I'm going to go with two SVS PB-10s.

Whichever you choose... ENJOY!

Err guys, the S12 till hits 15Hz in room....

SheepStar

 

[The13thGryphon]

Err guys, the S12 till hits 15Hz in room....

SheepStar

Okay, tell me where I can find the published spec's, or a frequency response curve, that shows either the max SPL at 15 Hz, or how many dB down the S12 is at that frequency, and I'll concede the point.

 

[Sheep]

Okay, tell me where I can find the published spec's, or a frequency response curve, that shows either the max SPL at 15 Hz, or how many dB down the S12 is at that frequency, and I'll concede the point.

Go to Energy's website and look at the review for the S12.3 the graph shows it 5 or 6 dB's down at 15Hz from its 100Hz reading.

Or go here. http://www.audio-ideas.com/reviews/loudspeakers/energy-12-3-sub.html

OWNED!

SheepStar

 

[The13thGryphon]

Hmmm. Maybe I'm missing something... or maybe I'm just stubborn.

However, I think all I can give you is a qualified maybe. I will admit that the two subs are much closer than I had recalled. However, the evidence is not conclusive for Mirage as you seem to suggest.

The response curve for the Energy S12.3 you provided - and I believe that the Mirage S12 is the same sub in a different set of clothes - indicates that its "in room" usable output at 15 Hz is 90 dB. According to an October 2004 review that Ed Mullen did for Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity, the SVS PB-10 has an "in room" output of 94 dB. That would seem to indicate that the BP-10 does go a bit lower... though obviously they were not tested in the same room.

Published specifications for the two subs list the "anechoic" frequency response for the Mirage S12 as being 19 Hz-120 Hz +/- 3dB; and for the SVS PB-10 as 18 Hz - 100 Hz ± 3 dB and was measured as being a nearly flat ±1 dB from 19 Hz - 150 Hz. This seemes (to me) to indicate a potential for a slight win for the PB-10... though certainly not a runaway game.

Both reviews do indicate that the respective sub has usable output down to 15 Hz. The Secrets of HT&HF review indicates that the PB-10 "measured an excellent ±5 dB from 15 Hz - 100 Hz"; while the Audio Ideas Guide review states that the Energy S12.3 "is down only a couple of dB at 15 Hz, relative to 100 Hz". The graph appears to indicate that it may be down 5 or 6 dB from 20 Hz. That sounds pretty close to a dead heat.

Contrary to my previously stated opinion, I would say that the in-room graphs also indicate that the SVS PB-10 may actually be the max SPL winner between these two. Though we may be missing a set of matching graphs to know that for sure.

Anyway, I will concede that the Energy S12.3/Mirage S12 is a better sub than I had remembered it being, and I would conclude that I don't think you could go too far wrong with either model. Is that concession enough to keep the peace?

 

[vividere]

Is there a place where I can see a similar curve for the SVS PB-10?

I have just bought one but don't know that I have seen a frequency graph for it? I only bought it due to reputation. So far I don't think I am effectively using it.

Lew

 

[The13thGryphon]

Is there a place where I can see a similar curve for the SVS PB-10?

I have just bought one but don't know that I have seen a frequency graph for it? I only bought it due to reputation. So far I don't think I am effectively using it.

Lew

Here's the link to the Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity review... it's great reading.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/svs-pb10-subwoofer-10-2004.html

 

[vividere]

I should have said I did find this chart for the PB-10:

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-10isd.cfm

If I read that chart right, the PB-10 has less overall db (95 vs. 100), but at 15Hz it has dropped 15db...???

I don't know if it was tested under the same conditions as the other chart that was pointed out. I know there is the "outside" test and the "inside" test and they give different results, i.e. lower bass inside than outside. I only know enough about this stuff to be dangerous. I am but a babe in the woods but I am trying to conssume the most information I can. I need to figure out how to get my new PB-10 set up as I am sure I am not effectively utilitizing it. For instance, I was trying to find where it said how much more db should be sent to the sub? Depending on what the gain is on the sub, the receiver during autosetup raises or lowers the dB to the SW. I saw somewhere a suggestion about 6 or 7 db more than the other speakers?

 

[Ron Temple]

Since the Vanns deal, there have been quite a few subjective and measurement posts comparing the Mirage and PB10. Personally, I think they are both great. From one of the most ardent Mirage fans (he has 2), his in room is pretty flat to 21 hz, where it shines is 25-62hz. The PB10, IIRC, numbers exceeded the S12s from 18-30hz, the the S12 took over from there.

Whatever the choice, you get a great sub at that price. If you are paying retail for the Mirage...go with the SVS.

vivdere,

I'm confused... seems you are asking SVS setup questions. Clarify, I''m sure you'll get help.

 

[learner]

This thread helped me more than any of my other research. Just hearing you guys, who have much more knowledge than I do, debate the issue and show various charts was invaluable. This is why I frequent this place. I have decided to order the Mirage. After reading this thread I finally feel confident about my decision. Thanks.

 

[Sheep]

Hmmm. Maybe I'm missing something... or maybe I'm just stubborn.

However, I think all I can give you is a qualified maybe. I will admit that the two subs are much closer than I had recalled. However, the evidence is not conclusive for Mirage as you seem to suggest.

The response curve for the Energy S12.3 you provided - and I believe that the Mirage S12 is the same sub in a different set of clothes - indicates that its "in room" usable output at 15 Hz is 90 dB. According to an October 2004 review that Ed Mullen did for Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity, the SVS PB-10 has an "in room" output of 94 dB. That would seem to indicate that the BP-10 does go a bit lower... though obviously they were not tested in the same room.

Published specifications for the two subs list the "anechoic" frequency response for the Mirage S12 as being 19 Hz-120 Hz +/- 3dB; and for the SVS PB-10 as 18 Hz - 100 Hz ± 3 dB and was measured as being a nearly flat ±1 dB from 19 Hz - 150 Hz. This seemes (to me) to indicate a potential for a slight win for the PB-10... though certainly not a runaway game.

Both reviews do indicate that the respective sub has usable output down to 15 Hz. The Secrets of HT&HF review indicates that the PB-10 "measured an excellent ±5 dB from 15 Hz - 100 Hz"; while the Audio Ideas Guide review states that the Energy S12.3 "is down only a couple of dB at 15 Hz, relative to 100 Hz". The graph appears to indicate that it may be down 5 or 6 dB from 20 Hz. That sounds pretty close to a dead heat.

Contrary to my previously stated opinion, I would say that the in-room graphs also indicate that the SVS PB-10 may actually be the max SPL winner between these two. Though we may be missing a set of matching graphs to know that for sure.

Anyway, I will concede that the Energy S12.3/Mirage S12 is a better sub than I had remembered it being, and I would conclude that I don't think you could go too far wrong with either model. Is that concession enough to keep the peace?

SVS PB-10 is measure ground plain at 2m, not Anechoic.

And yes the S12 and S12.3 use the same driver, and amp. Also the same porting method.

SheepStar

 

[warpdrive]

This thread helped me more than any of my other research. Just hearing you guys, who have much more knowledge than I do, debate the issue and show various charts was invaluable. This is why I frequent this place. I have decided to order the Mirage. After reading this thread I finally feel confident about my decision. Thanks.

The S12 is a great sub, you will not regret it.

 

[Sheep]

I should have said I did find this chart for the PB-10:

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-10isd.cfm

If I read that chart right, the PB-10 has less overall db (95 vs. 100), but at 15Hz it has dropped 15db...???

I don't know if it was tested under the same conditions as the other chart that was pointed out. I know there is the "outside" test and the "inside" test and they give different results, i.e. lower bass inside than outside. I only know enough about this stuff to be dangerous. I am but a babe in the woods but I am trying to conssume the most information I can. I need to figure out how to get my new PB-10 set up as I am sure I am not effectively utilitizing it. For instance, I was trying to find where it said how much more db should be sent to the sub? Depending on what the gain is on the sub, the receiver during autosetup raises or lowers the dB to the SW. I saw somewhere a suggestion about 6 or 7 db more than the other speakers?

That chart is ground plain(outside measurement). The in room response is down to 15hz at -5dB. The reason is drops is because of a subsonic filter prevent the cone from over excursion.

General rule is to run the subwoofer 5dB's "hotter" then speakers.

At www.hometheaterhifi.com they have an in-room response graph for hte PB-10.

SheepStar

 

[The13thGryphon]

SVS PB-10 is measure ground plain at 2m, not Anechoic.

And yes the S12 and S12.3 use the same driver, and amp. Also the same porting method.

SheepStar

I did not intentionally misstate any of the specifications or information I was trying to convey. However, as there is a "ground plane" graph and associated numbers in the Home Theater & HiFi review, as well as an "in room" graph and numbers, and then there's the manufacturers graph and numbers which are listed as being "anechoic", I appear to have mixed up one set of numbers. Although I tried my best to keep them all straight, I do make mistakes once in a while... I think I'm up to a total of six for my life thus far.

When I indicated that "Published specifications for the two subs list the "anechoic" frequency response for the Mirage S12 as being 19 Hz-120 Hz +/- 3dB; and for the SVS PB-10 as 18 Hz - 100 Hz ± 3 dB and was measured as being a nearly flat ±1 dB from 19 Hz - 150 Hz" I was only partially correct. I should have clarified that the second set of measurements in that sentence for the PB-10 (measured as being a nearly flat ±1 dB from 19 Hz - 150 Hz) was taken via the ground plane method, which I neglected to do.

Thanks for picking up on that mistake.

 

[vividere]

Hiya...

Thanks for all the responses...it is confusing to me that SVS claims "+/- 3dB from 20-100hz anechoic, in room extension will be 2-5hz deeper" for the PB10 but in the other charts they show pretty good response out to 200 or even higher...

I discovered that my center speaker is only rated for 80 so that means to me that my crossover point needs to be above that? The Yamaha program set the crossover at 200 and then 160 when running it again and I bumped it down to 60 as that seemd to be quite common for users of that particular sub. Now I am wondering if a setting at 100 or higher isn't best?

I have done a lot of research but haven't found really good solid information I could relate to for determining the crossover point, especially without having any test meters.

Thanks,

Lew

 

[Khellandros66]

Very thorough review here on the SVS PB10-ISD

~Bob