Sumiko Rainier Cartridge

[Squishman]

This Amy record happens to be pop, not acoustic. Great guitars, keyboards, vocals. Just excellent. No, neither tt has a built-in pre-amp.
I think I have a verdict with this set up. They sound ridiculously close, if not identical. I switched every 30 seconds or so, same track, started at the same time. Anyway, I had to look up several times to which was playing. No sub. I had both inputs on direct.
Looks like I am keeping the Sukiyaki. Or Sukima I mean. Plus I got the new upgrade stylus on the way. Two new stlylus' Can't beat that.
I'd like to know TLS Guy's opinion on my verdict.

 

[highfigh]

This Amy record happens to be pop, not acoustic. Great guitars, keyboards, vocals. Just excellent. No, neither tt has a built-in pre-amp.
I think I have a verdict with this set up. They sound ridiculously close, if not identical. I switched every 30 seconds or so, same track, started at the same time. Anyway, I had to look up several times to which was playing. No sub. I had both inputs on direct.
Looks like I am keeping the Sukiyaki. Or Sukima I mean. Plus I got the new upgrade stylus on the way. Two new stlylus' Can't beat that.
I'd like to know TLS Guy's opinion on my verdict.

I know who she is- the first time I heard of her and her music was in the '70s. You know she's married to Vince Gill, right?

An interesting thing about cartridges, microphones, etc- they may spec similarly, but they won't always sound "the same", even if they're the same model, from the same year/month/day/run. One of my customers wanted to compare test pressings for his LP that was being mixed and mastered, so he bought two of the same turntables and cartridges. He used a Niles audio switch to allow a quick changeover and he called to ask why they sounded different. Even at that time when LPs were still king and cartridges were being made by the boatload, they sounded different. I told my boss I was taking a bunch of cartridges to the customer's house and once we found two that sounded close enough for his liking, I packed the others in their boxes and was asked for my comments about the sound of the sound in general, about differences that were caused by where they were on the LPs (inner, middle or outer) and opinions about the mix.

I took it as a compliment since he has an Oscar for a 5.1 remix of a concert video, moved from Milwaukee to California to start a recording studio and has an impressive list of production credits.

 

[Squishman]

I know who she is- the first time I heard of her and her music was in the '70s. You know she's married to Vince Gill, right?

An interesting thing about cartridges, microphones, etc- they may spec similarly, but they won't always sound "the same", even if they're the same model, from the same year/month/day/run. One of my customers wanted to compare test pressings for his LP that was being mixed and mastered, so he bought two of the same turntables and cartridges. He used a Niles audio switch to allow a quick changeover and he called to ask why they sounded different. Even at that time when LPs were still king and cartridges were being made by the boatload, they sounded different. I told my boss I was taking a bunch of cartridges to the customer's house and once we found two that sounded close enough for his liking, I packed the others in their boxes and was asked for my comments about the sound of the sound in general, about differences that were caused by where they were on the LPs (inner, middle or outer) and opinions about the mix.

I took it as a compliment since he has an Oscar for a 5.1 remix of a concert video, moved from Milwaukee to California to start a recording studio and has an impressive list of production credits.

Yeah, I knew she was married to him. Reading your reply just makes me think of all the great professional experience and history a lot of you guys have. Me, I have been dabbling in home and car stereos for about 45 years. Never anything in audio as a profession. I imagine I installed 75 car stereos in my cars and for friends over the years. Starting with Craig Powerplays in the 70's. My older brother and his friends had Craig Powerplay 8 tracks and I scoffed at them! I was a cassette guy. And my homemade tapes kicked the cr--p out their 8 tracks. Now adays, I listen to talk radio on my medical delivery job. ha.

 

[highfigh]

Yeah, I knew she was married to him. Reading your reply just makes me think of all the great professional experience and history a lot of you guys have. Me, I have been dabbling in home and car stereos for about 45 years. Never anything in audio as a profession. I imagine I installed 75 car stereos in my cars and for friends over the years. Starting with Craig Powerplays in the 70's. My older brother and his friends had Craig Powerplay 8 tracks and I scoffed at them! I was a cassette guy. And my homemade tapes kicked the cr--p out their 8 tracks. Now adays, I listen to talk radio on my medical delivery job. ha.

First time I installed a Craig car stereo was for a girlfriend in about 1976 and I knew ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about how to do much with it, aside from mounting it, installing the speakers and making the connections. I picked a power wire and as it turned out, it was for the four way hazard lights, so the only time it worked was when they were on and even then, it flashed with them. Not impressed, was she. A couple of years later, I started working at a stereo store and was roped into installing a car stereo, even though I still didn't know much of anything about electricity or electronics. 20 years later with lots of training/MECP certification, installing at three stores and managing the install department at two shops, my best guess is that I worked on around 7000 vehicles of various types, including an Oscar Mayer Weiner Wagon. Put stereos in a bunch of Belarus farm implements, too.

8-track, yeah, what a format. Try to rewind one of those, Bill Lear! (as in, Lear Jet and Lear vehicle accessories)

About "professional experience"; I went to see a band in the early-2000s and a guy came up to re-introduce himself- he had been a customer for several years, then I left that store and didn't see him for a long time. He said "I should have listened to you" and I asked what he meant. He had started working for a local audio/AV store and things weren't going well because the president of the company was listening to his advisors, who were idiots and he hated working there. He said that he'd gone to the store where I worked and said "This has to be the best job!", all bright eyed and cheerfully. I answered with "Makes a better hobby" and then "I remember!".

We're both still in the audio/AV business- I went on my own in 2003 doing AV/Home Theater sales & install, added network and light automation along the way and he's now the regional sales manager for KEF.

Makes me tired, just thinking about it.

 

[davidscott]

I had a Kraco 8track installed in a brand new 1980 ford pinto when i got out of the air force. Sounded pretty good at the time except for the clicks in the middle of songs. Light years behind my home setup at the time but hey I still had music in my ride.

 

[Squishman]

The Ortofon Blue is a nude eliptical. Both the Sumiko Rainier and Olympia (the upgraded stylus they are sending) are lesser quality. Elliptical bonded to a post, then mounted on the cantilever. Not sure the actual name of that. But if to my ears, I cannot tell the difference, should I care? Also to consider is that the O Blue has been used for a year and a half. Is it still a no-brainer that I keep the Sumiko? I think so. I just want to know if I am on the right track.

 

[lovinthehd]

If the minutiae of vinyl playback are important to you, the type of stylus might be a reason to differentiate, like better measurements for gear. OTOH if you can't hear the difference, does it matter? How many hours does your Ortofon stylus have? Like I said, I found good quality cartridges to be more similar than different myself. I just don't bother much these days....my Shure M97xE will probably last me for the rest of my vinyl playing days unless I damage it with carelessness.....and for my usage a spare just wouldn't be necessary particularly.

 

[Squishman]

If the minutiae of vinyl playback are important to you, the type of stylus might be a reason to differentiate, like better measurements for gear. OTOH if you can't hear the difference, does it matter? How many hours does your Ortofon stylus have? Like I said, I found good quality cartridges to be more similar than different myself. I just don't bother much these days....my Shure M97xE will probably last me for the rest of my vinyl playing days unless I damage it with carelessness.....and for my usage a spare just wouldn't be necessary particularly.

I don't play more than 3 or 4 lp's a week. So pretty low hours. I'd say for sure under 200 hours usage on the O Blue.

 

[Squishman]

I would hate to regret later that I didn't keep the superior cart.

 

[TLS Guy]

I would hate to regret later that I didn't keep the superior cart.

I am certain that the Ortofon Blue is the superior cartridge. A nude diamond is a better tip and more costly to produce. I would suspect that the Ortofon cartridge despite some hours on it, will outlast the Sumiko.

Ortofon issue meaningful specs for the Blue, Sumiko publish meaningless ones.

Ortofon have produced superb cartridges for years (over 70). I think they produce the best currently available.

The Orofon Blue has good third party data. It measures superbly.

A lot if not most cartridges do not measure that well. I can find no third party measurements of that Sumiko Rainier. However, I can find for the Pearl on which I understand it is derived.

So, my recommendation, and it is strong, that you keep the Orofon Blue and sell on the Sumiko.

By the way, Ortofon do not produce a cartridge that measures as badly as that Sumiko above.

 

[Squishman]

Thx for confirming that TLS Guy! I was coming over to that side last night when I saw that the Sumiko (and the upgrade they are sending for free are both inferior to the Ortofon Blue and that the Sumikos would wear much faster.

 

[highfigh]

The Ortofon Blue is a nude eliptical. Both the Sumiko Rainier and Olympia (the upgraded stylus they are sending) are lesser quality. Elliptical bonded to a post, then mounted on the cantilever. Not sure the actual name of that. But if to my ears, I cannot tell the difference, should I care? Also to consider is that the O Blue has been used for a year and a half. Is it still a no-brainer that I keep the Sumiko? I think so. I just want to know if I am on the right track.

The theory behind using a nude elliptical tip is that its moving mass is lower, so it will track better. Think in terms of a car's suspension- lower mass suspension components like control arms/brakes/hubs, wheels and tires maintain road contact better and this is referred to as the 'unsprung weight'.

The differences could be seen on an oscilloscope more easily than heard, in many cases. Plus, the tracking errors won't be audible on every song, every LP- it's only the most dynamic passages that cause the stylus to leave the surface, assuming the cartridge is a good match to the tonearm WRT compliance & mass and it's correctly set up.

When I started using my turntable after actually seeing the tip with my microscope, I decided to buy a second headshell and mount the Audio Technica cartridge that had been used for, maybe, ten hours. When that arrived, I adjusted it according to the three test records and listened to the tracks, making corrections as needed. Then, I was able to compare. It's not an instantaneous test- I need to remove each cartridge and insert the other and set the tracking weight, then adjust the level because the output from one is much lower than the AT. The same tracks were played and I made notes about bass, mids, treble sounds and impressions about the sound of various instruments. Mine definitely sound different and with the bass being a bit stronger from the AT, it's a good choice when the LP might be a bit weak in that range of frequencies.

I like having an option but the fact is, I rarely switch because the Denon sounds really good. That said, I enjoyed the AT when I used it.

It takes time to really hear the differences. Sometimes, it involves separation, balance of frequencies, an instrument may sound better using one or the other or one can create the impression that the instrument is "in the room".

 

[Squishman]

When I hear the term "unsprung weight", I think in terms of modern motorcycles where the forks are appropriately upside down now.

 

[highfigh]

When I hear the term "unsprung weight", I think in terms of modern motorcycles where the forks are appropriately upside down now.

Same principle. Less movable mass shoved upward has less inertia and momentum, so it will stay connected to the road better because it's easier for the uneven surface to make it move, but it will also slow much faster at the end of its travel.

I have watched cycles, cars and trucks racing off-road and find it fascinating to watch them go airborne, land & squat and carry on without losing control.

 

[lovinthehd]

When I hear the term "unsprung weight", I think in terms of modern motorcycles where the forks are appropriately upside down now.

More ties into my mountain biking habits, just lately though I did get an e-moto with "upside down" forks. I almost had some on a mountain bike but that particular fork had lots of production/service issues altho was wickedly light for its capabilities at the time....they never made much inroads on the mountain bike scene. Partly keeping the stanchions out of danger I think was an issue.

 

[Squishman]

I got only $200 for my used, like new Pro-Ject TT with the brand new Sumiko cart. The guy got a tremendous deal. Plus I threw in the brand new Olympia stylus. I dropped the $$ twice. As soon as I got down to $200, it sold in an hour.
I am very happy with my Evo, btw.

 

[TLS Guy]

I got only $200 for my used, like new Pro-Ject TT with the brand new Sumiko cart. The guy got a tremendous deal. Plus I threw in the brand new Olympia stylus. I dropped the $$ twice. As soon as I got down to $200, it sold in an hour.
I am very happy with my Evo, btw.

That is unfortunate. However, used turntables of the newer varieties seem to be fetching fairly low prices. I had good look on eBay sales and your experience seems pretty typical for completed sales of decent turntables going for less than $200.00 fairly often.

It seems the turntable market is getting to be a collectors market with historic turntables going for their sustained high prices. It does seem the collectors know what to go for, as it is the best of vintage they are after. Garrard, Thorens and SME leading the pack.

 

[lovinthehd]

Curious what site/method did you use to sell your old tt? What was new $ on your old tt? I guess the demand has fallen again, maybe somewhat the covid impact?

 

[TLS Guy]

Curious what site/method did you use to sell your old tt? What was new $ on your old tt? I guess the demand has fallen again, maybe somewhat the covid impact?

May be people in the budget market are short on cash? The price he got is in line with completed sales on eBay. In fact decent turntables going for less at the moment.

 

[lovinthehd]

May be people in the budget market are short on cash? The price he got is in line with completed sales on eBay. In fact decent turntables going for less at the moment.

I don't pay a lot of attention to the vinyl "renaissance", but I do remember when it seems any tt sold at better than normal/reasonable prices.....but old (sometimes actually vintage) tts do seem to hold up.