Suggestions for First Audio Only Setup

[GranteedEV]

Spending $1000 on an amp out of a $2500 budget will not maximize your money at all. The speaker, and its interaction with the room, is something like 90% of the sound. adding an extra 5% to a 40% will still get you a failing grade, but a mere bonus 2% added to 70% will pass

Ultimately the amp needs only to suffice for the speaker, and the only way to know that is to decide on the SPEAKER first, not the amp.

 

[jostenmeat]

Hi the room is in fact 12x13, I'll make sure to keep in mind if the speaker is rear-ported or not.

as far tube amplifiers, I also play guitar and I own a fender hot rod deluxe, which is a tube amplifer. At least in the guitar amplication world, tube vs. solid state is really no debate since the sound is drastically different. i guess the answer may be to go listen to tube/solid state amps for music, but apparently it's not conclusive if it matters that much?

But you* are producing the original sound, with your appendages/physiology, mood, the room you're in, and where in the room you stand. Reproduction, it becomes different. And I like tube sound.

If I was a weird artist guy who liked producing laments and screams but through a pillow, and recorded these strange things . . . it doesn't mean the reproduction will be best served by covering my speakers with pillows. If that makes any kind of strange sense.

It's many an audiophile's dream and that of most audioholics as well - to perfectly re-create the sound exactly as it was recorded or performed live. I don't dispute this as a valid pursuit at all - I simply personally couldn't give a tiny rat-crap about that. To me that is the goal of the engineer or the artists themselves... MY goal is simply to enjoy what I am listening to without any concern as to the 'accuracy' of it.

I think like you do, I believe. I don't have time right now to read this whole thread, maybe later. I also found that if the recording was played absolutely perfectly* (shall I say for discussion's sake), that many of my favorite recordings became simply too flawed to listen to. This includes recordings of my favorite jazz musicians, as well as some favorite classical musicians. One of the things I like about my compromise-riddled electrostats are that they give up nothing in the vocal range (in fact, the very best I've heard in my life), but yet are still more forgiving with poorer recordings (not completely masked, but simply not as awful) as other well regarded and expensive speakers.

In my case I couldn't answer universally... I lean towards #2 more often simply because I believe the only people for which #1 is absolutely always the right answer - are the recording engineers themselves.

You know I have some friends that are into recording engineering, some pro, some amateur. I just checked out a newly built one, a nice big one, of a friend's replete with 3 pairs of monitors, tons of traps and diffusers, I don't know how many synths/keyboards . . . but anyways . . .

Some engineers think speakers are not all that important!! Hahaha. One guys said "speakers are speakers". OTOH, they place great* importance on jitter mgmt. Without getting into some more of these perceived differences, I just want to submit that I think engineers put a lot more into subjectivity than we "audiophiles" might think. Yes, they'll measure the living crap out of their rooms and what not, but subjectivity and maybe even some snake oil still seems to play a part in my humble opinion.

 

[3db]

But you* are producing the original sound, with your appendages/physiology, mood, the room you're in, and where in the room you stand. Reproduction, it becomes different. And I like tube sound.

If I was a weird artist guy who liked producing laments and screams but through a pillow, and recorded these strange things . . . it doesn't mean the reproduction will be best served by covering my speakers with pillows. If that makes any kind of strange sense.

OMG You just reminded me of an expereince I have to share. I apologize for the one post thread hyjack. Anyway, I went down to the hifi shop last week to pick up my Christmas album that I orderd from the..mJ.B.Lenoir "Alabama Blues" As I waiting for it I heard some high frequency sounds (8KHz to 10KHz) coming out of a speaker system. I said "ouch" and the owner looked at me curiously. The co-worker there explained to the owner that I found the sounds harsh and painful. I asked the owner if that was Audessy being run on the Marantz powering these speakers as I've not heard the Audessy test tones either but from the high pitch squeals and the Marantz, I arrived at what I thought was a reasonable conclusion. The owner almost offended looked at me and said "No. That was a modern classical music piece" I don't know how I did it but I bit my tongue and said nothing.

There was nothing classical about this at all. A bunch of 8KHz to 10KHz tones being played randomly followed by random pauses of quietness. Artistic merrit or not, I cannot believe that is can be considered music. What is it that people with no talent can come up with sh?t like that and dare call it music; even worse, modern classical?

I walked out of that store keeping my opinion to myself.

 

[zieglj01]

Now the only problem is that this amp is about $1000, and the other suggestions for amps I could easily get for less than $500!

Everybody has their beliefs and opinions - all I am going to say is,
unless you get a killer deal on some very good speakers - I would
not spend a $1000 on an amp. I get very good music through my
speakers, from a Marantz receiver and playing CD's on a Pioneer
BDP-320 Blu-ray player.

 

[3db]

. . .

Some engineers think speakers are not all that important!! Hahaha. One guys said "speakers are speakers". OTOH, they place great* importance on jitter mgmt. Without getting into some more of these perceived differences, I just want to submit that I think engineers put a lot more into subjectivity than we "audiophiles" might think. Yes, they'll measure the living crap out of their rooms and what not, but subjectivity and maybe even some snake oil still seems to play a part in my humble opinion.

Being an Engineer, I take offense to that remark!! j/k.

Seriously, those who believe in the snake oil crap aren't real engineers in my book. I find the word "engineer" is misappropriately used these days and its meaning as been diminished.

 

[InTheIndustry]

great responses, that elucidated tons.

i guess the point is moot since I just realized the amp I may go for, the peachtree decco or nova, can switch between solid state/tube with the controller provided.

Now the only problem is that this amp is about $1000, and the other suggestions for amps I could easily get for less than $500!

Get the B-Stock Decco. it's perfect for what younare doing and can be purchased for $500. I love the PeachTree integrateds for what you're looking to do. The Nova is also an incredible product, but unless you're going to upgrade speakers in the near future, the Decco will more than likely be a perfect fit to whatever speakers you put on them.

Some speaker suggestions:
- Canton GLE 490.2 or 470.2
- PSB Synchrony TWO (will need bigger amp than the Decco)
- PSB SYnchrony ONE B
- Jamo C805, C806, or C807
- Phase Technology PC 1.5
- PSB Imagine T

Something very unique with an incredible sound was just released from Martin Logan called the ElectroMotion (we brought in some ML samples and I think the stuff is great, provided you set it up correctly). It retails at $2k and I think it's an awesome speaker. You will want more power than the Decco, so maybe the Nova or an integrated with some juice. This would stretch your budget a bit if you paid full retail, but you should be able to swing a decent deal and come in under your budget. A link to the Electromotion: http://www.martinlogan.com/electromotion/index.php

Hope this helps you!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

ecost + denon...

You've convinced me never to even bother

but marantz + accessories4less?

I'll never quit

I'm glad to be able to contribute.

I may just try the Marantz + Accessories4Less in the future, unless I can find something else on amazon.com brand new for 56% off retail like that Denon 4310.

 

[pinchharmonic]

Get the B-Stock Decco. it's perfect for what younare doing and can be purchased for $500. I love the PeachTree integrateds for what you're looking to do. The Nova is also an incredible product, but unless you're going to upgrade speakers in the near future, the Decco will more than likely be a perfect fit to whatever speakers you put on them.

Some speaker suggestions:
- Canton GLE 490.2 or 470.2
- PSB Synchrony TWO (will need bigger amp than the Decco)
- PSB SYnchrony ONE B
- Jamo C805, C806, or C807
- Phase Technology PC 1.5
- PSB Imagine T

Something very unique with an incredible sound was just released from Martin Logan called the ElectroMotion (we brought in some ML samples and I think the stuff is great, provided you set it up correctly). It retails at $2k and I think it's an awesome speaker. You will want more power than the Decco, so maybe the Nova or an integrated with some juice. This would stretch your budget a bit if you paid full retail, but you should be able to swing a decent deal and come in under your budget. A link to the Electromotion: http://www.martinlogan.com/electromotion/index.php

Hope this helps you!

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

InTheIndustry, in your list now 3 brands are unfamiliar with me, canton, phase, and jamo. Now I have a very generic question, is there some thread or some easy explanation of the different speaker manufacturers? There just seems to be so many and it doesn't seem like people go towards one brand for a particular sound or anything, making it all very confusing =).

I was originally really leaning towards the ascend sierra-1 because I can purchase it online, but I want to take into account all brands suggested.

 

[InTheIndustry]

Sorry so long, but you asked

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

InTheIndustry, in your list now 3 brands are unfamiliar with me, canton, phase, and jamo. Now I have a very generic question, is there some thread or some easy explanation of the different speaker manufacturers? There just seems to be so many and it doesn't seem like people go towards one brand for a particular sound or anything, making it all very confusing =).

I was originally really leaning towards the ascend sierra-1 because I can purchase it online, but I want to take into account all brands suggested.

In short... NO, no there isn't a thread about different MFGs, what they do and how. But there should be, damn it!

I can give you a very detailed break-down of the different companies and why/how they design and build what they do but that would be a very long reading! I will keep it short & to the point as best I can...

Phase Technology....

Phase Technology is a classic American speaker brand. Almost everything that goes into their speakers: cabinets, magnets, voice coils, tweeters, woofers, etc. are made in-house here in the USA. Their founder, Bill Hecht invented the soft domed tweeter. His son, Ken is the President of the company now & is one of the finest speaker engineers I've ever spoken to. A very nice, personable, realistic, and smart guy. They OEM drivers for many many manufacturers, some are very upper end. In fact, Phase Technology tweeters were used in $70,000 MacIntosh Reference speakers for many years. Their engineering is THAT good. Today, Phase Tech PC products use the finest tweeters & woofers the company can make. It is a very very well respected brand in the audio industry to the point where I consider them a bit of an icon when one looks at their history & contributions. They have one of the finest systems I have ever heard, the dARTS system which Home Theater Magazine (if I recall) called "Theoretically Perfect". A new review of their PC line of speaker can be found here: http://www.phasetech.com/pdfs/reviews/review2/PC-1.5-review2.pdf

They have several Youtube videos up online under the screen name MSEAudio. Here's a link to their page & a video discussing their flat piston drivers. http://www.youtube.com/user/MSEAudioGroup#p/u/9/yJuYUrc5kEE


Canton....

Very similar to PhaseTech in terms of everything being made in-house and in the same place. Only everything they do is in Germany. This company, to me, is the German version of B&W, only with a much smaller dealer base in the US and a much more linear, controlled design & manufacturing process. Their quality control is beyond reproach as they manufacture one of the, if not the, best built product I have ever used.

To sum them up in one word: Consistency. Nearly all of their speakers use the same drivers from the ground up. The only difference between the series is the cabinet (for the most part). The GLE series is a vinyl finish and from their they go up in materials. Even their techs will tell you that their speakers, while going up in price, all have the same "family" of sound. Canton does not cut corners and tries, very successfully IMO, to achieve above excellence in what they produce.

Competing manufacturers ask us what brands of speakers we do all the time. When we tell manufacturers that call on my company that we do Canton (& PhaseTech for that matter) we get instant credibility. No one has ever spoken an ill word to us about Canton because... they really can't. Their sound is crisp, clean, cold. Not to say flat or boring - it's quite the opposite. They are very clean & present, but without being in your face. PhaseTech, conversely, is a warm, full, smooth, & more forgiving sound. I also love the fact that almost all of Canton’s models are front ported which makes for much easier placement near room boundaries.

One negative: Canton does not have a ton of dealers because their margins aren't particularly eye-popping. So, you won't usually find big big sales from dealers knocking $$$ off of A-stock new in box items. That & they're imported from Germany. Not that you can't find great pricing, just not 30-40% off.

Phase Tech on the other hand is a company that offers volume incentives that make a lot of sense (Canton is unwavering in this manner). So if you can find a strong dealer you can do well.

Here is a GREAT Video on Canton: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVIGgrRTlfM NOTICE: At 5:08 in the video they are using a PeachTree Audio NOVA!!!

Jamo....

Not as sexy a story as the other brands. They were once one of the largest speaker manufacturers in Europe and they make damn fine products. They are now owned by Klipsch but there products have nothing to do with each other. Jamo, to me, is like a much better version of Polk Audio here in the US. They make some really great, high value speakers - like their THX on-wall systems. They are not a copy cat company and the brand has a very rich tradition of turning out great products. Audioholics has reviewed a piece or two that you can easily dig up. I really like the brand and it's our entry level "box" speaker. I don't care for their subs (accept for the THX models), but even their C60 series is a great value for the dollar.

You can find a great deal on a lot of Jamo product. It is sold through distribution so lots of smaller independent companies or individual installers can get it and perhaps save a bit of $ for you. For us, it's a go to entry level product, but I think that's saying something. NOT to sound snarky, but we are VERY VERY particular as to what we recommend to our clients and what we use in their homes even if they are on a shoestring budget. If something isn't A++ for the $ I refuse to use it... no matter what kind of profit a company offers. I would recommend a lot of Jamo's line to almost anybody. It's (almost) all a very good value at street pricing.

Strangely enough, none of these three is my absolute favorite brand. That spot in my heart is reserved for BG Radia. I would recommend them to you, but they are an architectural brand only and realistically out of your stated budget. The 3 brands that you asked about above do what they do extremely well and can all fit into your budget while providing a great audio experience. Also, the Martin Logan ElectroStats are also an incredibly unique speaker. I would give them some consideration as well.

Hope this helps and was a fun read!

 

[pinchharmonic]

that was a fantastic read, thank you for putting the time into that. I have to admit just reading over your "stories" of phase and canton easily swayed me into considering them and researching them more. The confusing thing about phase was when I was looking at their site for the speakers you mentioned it kept talking about 25 years of PC, so I was thinking t hey spent 25 years making personal computer speakers, like the logitech stuff that sounds horrible.

in any case, an opinion of an expert as yourself is substantial for me. Have you heard the Ascend Sierra-1, the totem rainmakers?

And from that list you originally gave me, what would choose?

 

[GranteedEV]

Strangely enough, none of these three is my absolute favorite brand. That spot in my heart is reserved for BG Radia. I would recommend them to you, but they are an architectural brand only and realistically out of your stated budget. The 3 brands that you asked about above do what they do extremely well and can all fit into your budget while providing a great audio experience. Also, the Martin Logan ElectroStats are also an incredibly unique speaker. I would give them some consideration as well.

Hope this helps and was a fun read!

BG Radia looks like it's really inspired by Genesis and the older infinity stuff (or maybe vice versa??). Have you ever heard teh genesis 2.2?

 

[DD66000]

I would consider JBL L890/L880 towers, a Marantz or Harman-Kardon receiver and a multidisc player. The L890 is a front ported design, very good throughout the entire range. I bought a pair of L890s for my daughter, powered by a HK AVR, she would not give those up for anyone.
The pre-amps / power amps I like best with JBL speakers are Parasound.
You can find good deals on Parasound gear at Audio Advisor.com, especially on refurb or demo units.

 

[InTheIndustry]

BG Radia looks like it's really inspired by Genesis and the older infinity stuff (or maybe vice versa??). Have you ever heard teh genesis 2.2?

Well, line arrays have been around a long long time. A few years ago I was told by someone that I trust that Genesis used BG drivers (tweeters) on some of their speakers. I don't doubt this as BG OEMs drivers for lots of manufacturers. The two most expensive Martin Logan in-walls use BG tweeters as well.

Fred Yondo, former VP of sales for BG & now formerly with Artison told me - when he was with Artison BTW - that, in his opinion, BG made one of the only true line array speakers available to consumers for home use. Sure, a lot of companies will line up a lot of drivers in a box, but that doesn't make it an actual LA speaker. Artison was trying to do one a few years ago, but abandoned the project.

I have not heard a Geneais product, but would be interested in learning more about the line. And, funny you should mention Infinity - one of my installers saw the LA-600 we just got in & said Infinity did a line array years back.

 

[InTheIndustry]

that was a fantastic read, thank you for putting the time into that. I have to admit just reading over your "stories" of phase and canton easily swayed me into considering them and researching them more. The confusing thing about phase was when I was looking at their site for the speakers you mentioned it kept talking about 25 years of PC, so I was thinking t hey spent 25 years making personal computer speakers, like the logitech stuff that sounds horrible.

in any case, an opinion of an expert as yourself is substantial for me. Have you heard the Ascend Sierra-1, the totem rainmakers?

And from that list you originally gave me, what would choose?

Lol! I see what you're saying. PC stands for Premier Collection.

I will give you what I would debate....

Choice 1...
If it were me & I had your room I would do the PC 9.5 floor standing tower. I think that it represents a high end value, is beautiful to look at, and is a world class performer. It will take a stretching of your budget a little. The PC 9.5 MSRP is at $3,500 a pair, but you can get them at $2,500 a pair from a legit dealer no problem. So the stretch would be the extra $ for the Decco or Nova.

http://www.phasetech.com/products.html?product_id=PC-9.5



Orrrr, if your budget is firm or you would like to come in under....
The Canton GLE 490.2 would be a great speaker. Lots of aesthetic options, incredible value from a great company. Considerably lower cost than the PC 9.5 and still a fabulous product. It's def not in the same league as the PC 9.5 but it's not priced that way, either. And stepping up a few models/price with Canton will not yield a sizeable gain until you spend quite a bit more which would be 9.5 territory.

GLE 490.2 http://www.canton.de/en/hifi/gleserie/produkt/gle490.2.htm

At the end of the day, with the information you gave me & budget I would do the Canton because I could come in under or at budget and still get the more powerful NOVA. Or do the refurb Decco and save quite a bit. More power, however, is never a bad thing.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

There are plenty of options for 2 grand for tower speakers.
At this price point you MUST go to dealer and listed to them.
If I were you I'd find closest PSB dealer/showroom.....

And yea, nothing bugs me more than boutique audio products without proper specs, measurements, but full with empty words like : Warm, Tube, lets magically make mp3 files sound much better etc.....

I told you long ago - $500 (refub) mid range Onkyo (or Denon/Marantz) AVR and $2k speaker that's all you need

 

[Beatmatcher247]

All that colorful company history and you neglected PSB .

 

[pinchharmonic]

After I decide on speakers, to find an amp that works, do I just make sure that the watts output of the amp is the same or greater than that of the speaker?

For example, the canton vento speaker says something like 120 / 200 Watt

does that mean an amp should be at least 120 watts?

thanks!

 

[digicidal]

I may just try the Marantz + Accessories4Less in the future, unless I can find something else on amazon.com brand new for 56% off retail like that Denon 4310.

I did that (the 4310ci) and can't find anything wrong with it at all... that's my HT AVR... still have a tube setup and an SS integrated for 2ch - but the Denon is a first-rate unit and is equal in every way to the newest one selling for ~$1200 more with the exception of the AirPlay and iPad/iPod/iPhone remote controllability.

EDIT: I should add *Now that I've upgraded it to the latest firmware* - was having a nightmare before that due to a sloppy HDMI HDCP handshaking issue with my HTPC. With latest firmware all of that is a distant and unpleasant memory.

 

[digicidal]

After I decide on speakers, to find an amp that works, do I just make sure that the watts output of the amp is the same or greater than that of the speaker?

For example, the canton vento speaker says something like 120 / 200 Watt

does that mean an amp should be at least 120 watts?

thanks!

Somewhat different things... the amp is spec'd at it's peak output... the speaker is indicating it's power handling - and neither one gives you the full story without graphs indicating phase swings and impedance. But, that being said, as long as your amp is at least 30-50W and the speakers are at least 87db/1W/1M efficient (or sensitive) - you will be able to get more than loud enough in a room the size you mentioned in your original post. Although you will perhaps have something more dynamic if you use an amp of 120-200W output... it will not be necessary to enjoy very loud and clean sound from the system as a whole.

Now on the other hand if you plan on regularly running them at ear-bleeding levels... then you would need a more powerful amp to make sure you avoid clipping - but in a 1600cuft room (if I remember correctly) you aren't likely to even use 20W consistently.

By way of example/comparison - I ran a pair of Klipsch towers which were rated at 150-200W power handling with a 5W single ended tube amp and they got plenty loud enough (but were also 98db/1/1 sensitive) I've also run a pair of standmounted single drivers that were rated at max 60W power handling with a 150W SS amp - and they were just fine, although I'm sure I could have blown them up if I had tried to.