Subwoofer choice(PSA,SVS,HSU,JL Audio) for my 5.1 system

[gankum]

Hello folks
Continuing the 5.1 setup , I was originally planning to get the JL Audio e-sub e110..,but after further research, looks like HSU might offer a better performance/dollar value.

AVR=Marantz SR7010 or SR6010
Front Left/Right=Focal chorus 826V
Center = Focal Chorus CC800V
Room size = ~4000 cubic ft total, but HT section(extension) is much smaller(~1000 cubic ft)
Listening at moderate levels(haven't measured, but say 80db)

any experiences/feedback on these two and what would you recommend if I were to just stick with one sub(for now).

Thanks

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

subs can't "see" your room section where your watch tv. They attempt to pressurize whole open space.
As I had mentioned before - for a price of single e110 you can get dual uls15mk2

 

[gankum]

can I get away with just one HSU ULS 15 MK2 , if I listen at moderate levels most of the time or I need two for this space?

Thanks

 

[shadyJ]

One ULS-15 will wreck an e110. Two ULS-15s will totally annihilate an e110. For moderate volume levels, one would be sufficient. Two is more fun though!

 

[gankum]

Thanks , I will start with one...

 

[theJman]

4000 ft^3 is a fairly large space, so if you opt to go with sealed subwoofers - as it seems you're wont to do - you'll need drivers of commensurate size. I just published a review of the ULS-15 MK2, and almost 2 years ago one on the E112, so I have first hand experience with both of the units you're looking at (I know the E112 while you're looking at the E110 though, but it's close enough for me to comment).

From a sound quality perspective I would give the edge to JL Audio. The ULS-15 MK2 is an amazing subwoofer, but the E112 was a step above it. From an output standpoint the HSU has the upper hand. Given that you're looking at the 10" version of the JL Audio that disparity becomes even more pronounced.

Your room size almost mandates you go with the ULS-15, because for sure a single E110 will not provide sufficient output.

 

[shadyJ]

Having heard a host of JL Audio subs, including the F112 and F113, and a bunch of others I didn't make a point of remembering the model numbers, I would not trade my ULS-15s for any of them (except to sell and then use the profits to buy more ULS-15s). It also seems unlikely that the JL audio 'e' subs would have a significant sound quality advantage, given the original VTF15h mk1 beats it in almost every performance metric at data-bass.com. Doubtlessly the ULS-15 mk2 is above and beyond the original VTF15h. If you are saying you like the sound of the e112 more, OK, but in terms of actual sound quality, as in fidelity, the e112 doesn't stand a chance against a ULS-15 mk2.

 

[theJman]

Having heard a host of JL Audio subs, including the F112 and F113, and a bunch of others I didn't make a point of remembering the model numbers, I would not trade my ULS-15s for any of them (except to sell and then use the profits to buy more ULS-15s). It also seems unlikely that the JL audio 'e' subs would have a significant sound quality advantage, given the original VTF15h mk1 beats it in almost every performance metric at data-bass.com. Doubtlessly the ULS-15 mk2 is above and beyond the original VTF15h. If you are saying you like the sound of the e112 more, OK, but in terms of actual sound quality, as in fidelity, the e112 doesn't stand a chance against a ULS-15 mk2.

The E112 not only "stands a chance", it bests the ULS-15 MK2 from a SQ perspective. Whether you would trade your ULS for something else is only relevant to you. Graphs and charts are but one deciding factor - in the end it's all about the ears. You'll learn that someday. Dr. Hsu creates top-notch products, there's no argument there, but they aren't quite in the same league as JL Audio. There's no argument there either.

 

[shadyJ]

The E112 not only "stands a chance", it bests the ULS-15 MK2 from a SQ perspective. Whether you would trade your ULS for something else is only relevant to you. Graphs and charts are but one deciding factor - in the end it's all about the ears. You'll learn that someday. Dr. Hsu creates top-notch products, there's no argument there, but they aren't quite in the same league as JL Audio. There's no argument there either.

The problem here is 'sound quality' is an objective term. Fidelity can be quantified. A shiny gloss finish and a high price tag does not somehow make a speaker or subwoofer more accurate. As for "it's all about the ears", given the short life of aural memory plus the poor pitch definition that humans have of bass, how do you think you can even compare these subs that you have heard years apart? The only way to properly compare them for even a subjective comparison is for fast A/B switching. Which sub you like better is not a measure of 'sound quality'. On top of that, the JL Audio subs have some performance compromises that make them hard to recommend, especially at that price.

 

[theJman]

Fidelity can not be quantified in the manner you suggest, nor can sound quality. It's simply not possible. Audio is about far more than that, something which has been pointed out to you many times by quite a few people. Sadly, you refuse to accept facts. Numbers, by themselves, will never be able to determine such things in their entirety. Period. You remain steadfast in the useless pursuit of objectifying that which can not be completely expressed by graphs. Static analysis is nothing more than a means to determine characteristics, not suitability to task. Price is irrelevant when it comes to these discussions. Your assertion to the contrary is as inane as suggesting 0-60 times determine overall performance of a car. That's absolutely ludicrous, and nothing more than the province of the uninformed.

JL Audio has no performance compromises, something the learned know first hand. Their products reside in the upper echelon for a legitimate reason, one that the erudite can fully understand. Dr. Hsu has engineered some fine subwoofers, but his price point does not allow him to effectively compete with JL Audio. That is a fact, your sycophant tendencies notwithstanding.

 

[shadyJ]

These are the same bogus arguments we hear time and time again in audio about that ineffable, mysterious "something" which measurements can't quite pin down which elevates one audio product over another, despite all objective evidence to the contrary. It is used by audio dealers to sell over-priced cables, magic power conditioners, magic equipment racks, magic speaker stands, etc. I enjoy high-performance audio products, but there is nothing magical about them. The objective qualities which constitute "good sound" for both trained and untrained listeners are pretty well understood. 0-60 can not, of course, encompass the totality of a car's performance, but that metric, in combination with a bunch of others, can. If they couldn't, computers would not be able to usefully model automobiles, not to mention airplanes, helicopters, rockets, etc. And I am not relying on a single metric to tell me which sub is the higher performer either.

As for the JL Audio sub not having any performance compromises, it obviously has some if you look at the Audioholics or data-bass.com review. First, it is using a high pass filter to shape the response, and for me that is a no-no on a sealed sub. Second, it has a protection circuit which, to quote data-bass.com, "dials back the power when the signals are of very long duration." While these are sensible precautions to protect the sub from abusive users, they are nonetheless compromises, and they are not compromises I want in subs that I own. It could be said that the small size is a compromise as well. I would also say that the lack of shorting rings evident in the max long term sweeps is a compromise, where the effects of inductance can no longer be compensated for by equalization. You would think a manufacturer could be bothered to put some shorting rings in the driver of a $2k sealed 12" sub. It might have extended the top end up the driver more as well, as the JL Audio drivers start rolling off at 100 Hz, and that is a serious compromise, but that is the consequence of trying to squeeze so much excursion out of such a small driver.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Thanks , I will start with one...

Without going into piss fight, Even Jim would agree that apples to apples - dual HSU vs single JL, is better way to go due to bass room modes - two subs will definitely allow best sub across bigger sweet spot.
Even with sub crawl - single sub sweet spot (where room modes null is minimal) can be rather small.

Now since your room is rather on larger side, if you might benefit from vented sub like VTF-3 MK5 HP - it's a bit bigger, but will pressurise the room a lot better than sealed (only). VTF subs can run as sealed if so desired - depends on your preferences.

But if you set on smaller box - ULS15 MK2 is a fine sub and I guarantee you - you won't be disappointed. And if you would like more bass later on - just get a second one - after all - you've budgeted for it from the get-go

 

[theJman]

Without going into piss fight, Even Jim would agree that apples to apples - dual HSU vs single JL, is better way to go due to bass room modes - two subs will definitely allow best sub across bigger sweet spot.

From an output standpoint, absolutely. A single ULS-15 MK2 would still have the advantage, but that has never been in debate for me. It's the SQ aspect. Shady is just perpetually lost in a world of bias and misinformation, foolishly claiming that numbers tell the whole story. He's even of the mind that basing vehicle comparisons strictly on numbers and graphs - no matter how many - will also determine which car performs better. It can't there either; no matter what the spec's say each vehicle has its own feel, its own signature. The Mustang and Camaro may have virtually identical performance characteristics, but on the road they drive very differently. Audio is the same. That can't be denied, at least by those who know what they're talking about anyway. There's definitely a reason JL Audio subs cost more.

 

[ski2xblack]

Hmm, seems that it's you who are lost in a world of bias and misinformation, foolishly claiming that price tells the whole story.

I gave you a rainbow because turd was not an option.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

He's even of the mind that basing vehicle comparisons strictly on numbers and graphs - no matter how many - will also determine which car performs better. It can't there either; no matter what the spec's say each vehicle has its own feel, its own signature. The Mustang and Camaro may have virtually identical performance characteristics, but on the road they drive very differently. Audio is the same. That can't be denied, at least by those who know what they're talking about anyway. There's definitely a reason JL Audio subs cost more.

Let's agree on disagree on your Mustang and Camaro example. If engine is the amp - then judging solely by amp power - these are very comparable. You probably don't just judge subs solely by their amps power, right?

If the driver is the suspension , then Mustang's (2015 and newer) independent type is definite HUGE differentiator in how car handing - aka behaves in corners, emergency/racing driving and what you call "feel"

Luckily unlike most subs, Car have their pretty detailed specs published.
Now I know that handling performance is rarely measured, but it's definitely possible, making car example imo even less relevant/

 

[theJman]

Hmm, seems that it's you who are lost in a world of bias and misinformation, foolishly claiming that price tells the whole story.

I gave you a rainbow because turd was not an option.

Well, I can give you a turd because it is an option. Make sure you share it with your kool-aid drinking companion too. And while you're munching away be sure to go back and actually read my posts, because I would love for you to point out where I said price tells the whole story.

Such industry luminaries as Mark Seaton have echoed what I'm saying; numbers are one arrow in your quiver when it comes to making a decision, but they aren't the end-all-be-all because they can't tell you everything. To quote...

"So if multiple listeners report one product is subjectively more capable than another, is that observation discarded if the max CEA output (one limited test) shows them similar over a small frequency range? There are multiple reasons for the subjective differences. Some are obvious in measurements, some are much less obvious or only are seen in the light of multiple measurements. Real playback includes complex and diverse signals spanning the entire subwoofer range. The measurements still provide no clear quantification of what happens at the limits of different designs. Using an extreme example, you can expect different real world impressions from a product which sounds like it's being driven to destruction from any brief overload vs. one which doesn't skip a beat or which has some advantages with complex signals and application realities. This isn't to say the measurements aren't of value, but way too many get hung up on a few specific numbers rather than the larger picture."

Need another bite? Josh Ricci himself - the man behind data-bass.com, everyone's go to source for information - has also stated that his data should not be used exclusively to make a purchasing decision. Why? Because CEA-2010 tests don't account for everything, and therefore they should be used for comparison sake but not to ultimately decide what to purchase. If the man producing the numbers everyone uses doesn't feel you can tell the entire picture from them - along with a person who has forgotten more about subwoofer design than most of us will ever know - then why waste time and energy arguing the indefensible? I'll certain defer to those in the know before I will to those not, and for me Mark and Josh certainly qualify as the former.

 

[theJman]

Let's agree on disagree on your Mustang and Camaro example. If engine is the amp - then judging solely by amp power - these are very comparable. You probably don't just judge subs solely by their amps power, right?

If the driver is the suspension , then Mustang's (2015 and newer) independent type is definite HUGE differentiator in how car handing - aka behaves in corners, emergency/racing driving and what you call "feel"

Luckily unlike most subs, Car have their pretty detailed specs published.
Now I know that handling performance is rarely measured, but it's definitely possible, making car example imo even less relevant/

My illustration with cars was for all the spec's, not just engine power. When looking at reviews they quantify numerical things such as braking distances, skidpad adhesion, slalom time, etc. Those are chassis dynamics related, and even when those are nearly identical - as is the case with the Mustang and Camaro - you still can't tell things like how the vehicle rides in the real world, how it tracks if it hits a bump in a corner, what the steering input is like at the edge, and on and on. Simply put, not everything can be assigned a numeric value or be graphed. That's been my sole contention since the beginning.

 

[PENG]

My illustration with cars was for all the spec's, not just engine power. When looking at reviews they quantify numerical things such as braking distances, skidpad adhesion, slalom time, etc. Those are chassis dynamics related, and even when those are nearly identical - as is the case with the Mustang and Camaro - you still can't tell things like how the vehicle rides in the real world, how it tracks if it hits a bump in a corner, what the steering input is like at the edge, and on and on. Simply put, not everything can be assigned a numeric value or be graphed. That's been my sole contention since the beginning.

I agree, I have driven many cars, pickups and suvs and found the least powerful one most fun to drive. I also have to agree with shadyJ that there are always going to be compromise, I doubt JL Audio would be the exception. I assume you were just trying to make a point, and in doing so, you might have exaggerated a little.

 

[Seth=L]

I gave you a rainbow because turd was not an option.

I gave you a laughing face because evil was not an option.

To clarify I neither agree or disagree with the arguments made here. I was just amused.

 

[theJman]

I agree, I have driven many cars, pickups and suvs and found the least powerful one most fun to drive. I also have to agree with shadyJ that there are always going to be compromise, I doubt JL Audio would be the exception. I assume you were just trying to make a point, and in doing so, you might have exaggerated a little.

No exaggeration really; what started the nonsense was me saying a JL Audio sub has better SQ than the HSU, which it does. I have first-hand experience with both so my comment is based upon direct exposure. The ULS-15 is a great sub that provides a tremendous amount of value, but it's not quite at the JL Audio level. Sounds like the protagonist might own a ULS-15 so perhaps his feelings were hurt by that realization. No reason for it though, because dollar-for-dollar the HSU is the better deal.