Subwoofer Cables

[Tom Steele]

Ok,

This will stir up the pot I'm sure, but I don't understand it at all. Maybe someone here can change my mind.

First, let me tell you my background. I have an engineering degree with a math minor. But I haven't used it and I've forgotten so much that it is embarrassing. On the other hand, I still have enough basic knowledge and understanding of the concepts that I can usually do a little research and re-learn or catch up on things that I am rusty with these days when I need. In other words, I understand the basic concepts of electronic circuitry and electricity.

I ended up going into (radio) broadcasting my senior year of college and never did anything in the engineering field.

However, this career has involved me with some quite expensive professional sound equipment over the years. That has changed somewhat recently, as computers and (data) compression have become big parts of radio. Still, we have some nice processing equipment in the broadcast chain and we use decent speakers in our studios, etc... I have a little hands on experience with high-end stuff.

So... Here is my perspective. I believe that MOST, if not ALL, high end cables are a scam. PARTICULARLY for subwoofers.

Let me zip my flame-suit on (someone needs to make a cool smiley for that).

Here's why:

1. For subs, you are running RCA to the amp. This involves very little current or voltage and the average RCA connector wire will handle this load easily. I'd MAYBE recommend going to Radio Shack and making sure you were getting a good quality (copper wire, gold plated ends) wire, but I wouldn't spend any serious money on it.

BTW, the reason I bring this up at all, is another thread ("subs under $600" I think) where someone was going to sacrifice the quality of his sub because the price of a sub that he wanted wouldn't leave any money left over for the cable.

I cannot believe that cable is important enough to outrank the quality of the sub itself. I think this is the effect of good marketing of a snake-oil product which takes money from a budget that could have been spent on better equipment.

2. Ok, lets talk about loudspeaker wiring. Here's my suggestion. Go out and buy some good copper extension cords and cut them up and use them. They can carry 120 volts at ~20 AMPS!!!! You can't possibly use all the headroom there, even over very long household distances.

3. Some cabling advertises that it has special winding that helps this frequency or that. I believe that may, or may not, be true. But I think people get lost in specifications sometimes. Sure, maybe this wire has 1db better response on 22khz signals, blah blah blah... But can you hear it?

If you truly believe in cabling, and you have the extra money to throw around - go ahead. Just like most "snake-oil" products, "it can't hurt" (anything but your wallet.)

http://www.csicop.org/sb/9812/snakeoil.html

But if you are on a budget, then I'd demand some blind tests. That's where you don't know which cabling is being used and you listen.

I bet ya can't hear a difference.

-Tom Steele

 

[Pat D]

Preaching to the choir. Take a search of this site and look up the measurements and comparisons of different cables.

 

[Tom Steele]

I hadn't searched...

Preaching to the choir. Take a search of this site and look up the measurements and comparisons of different cables.

I hadn't searched but you are right. Great threads, like this one: http://www.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3595&highlight=cable+specs

Too bad it got locked, there was good data in there!

The reason I started this thread though, was the comment in the "under $600 sub" thread (I think, I still haven't double checked to see if it was definitely that thread) where someone was going to buy a cheaper sub to save money for cables!!!

It just doesn't make sense to me and it is a shame that someone might get a lower quality piece of equipment so they can buy some expensive cables.

-Tom Steele

 

[Redbone]

I say you should buy a decent cable for around $80 like Analysis Plus or XLO. But please do not spend more and a cable will never make up for a subs shortcomings.

 

[Tom Steele]

Why do you say that?

I say you should buy a decent cable for around $80 like Analysis Plus or XLO. But please do not spend more and a cable will never make up for a subs shortcomings.

Redbone,

WHY do you say that? Why pay $80 for a SUBWOOFER cable? It doesn't sound ANY different than a $5 cable and you could spend that other $75 on a better sub to begin with.

-Tom Steele

 

[Redbone]

Yes it does sound different and there are studies to prove it. Maybe you just haven't listened to the right cable like Analysis plus or XLO.... I have done lots of experamenting with cables and it makes a noticeable difference in my opinion.

 

[Rob Babcock]

Yes it does sound different and there are studies to prove it. Maybe you just haven't listened to the right cable like Analysis plus or XLO.... I have done lots of experamenting with cables and it makes a big difference in my opinion.

I'd be very interested indeed to see a summary of those studies. Do you have a link, by chance?

 

[Rÿche 1]

Yes it does sound different and there are studies to prove it. Maybe you just haven't listened to the right cable like Analysis plus or XLO.... I have done lots of experamenting with cables and it makes a big difference in my opinion.

Huh?......

 

[Tom Steele]

Yes it does sound different and there are studies to prove it. Maybe you just haven't listened to the right cable like Analysis plus or XLO.... I have done lots of experamenting with cables and it makes a big difference in my opinion.

Betcha haven't had a friend try different cables and have you do a blind listen test. And I bet you would be shocked to find out you really CAN'T tell a difference.

Spend your money on better equipment not on cables.

If nothing else, ask yourself this: HOW can a cable truly cost anything close to $80 to make?

Then do a google search on "snake oil" and see what you find...



-Tom Steele

 

[Redbone]

What ever you want to believe but as I said quality cables have always made a difference in my system. I have tried lots of different brands from Zip Cord to upscale. I have had friends listen as well as myself and we do feel there are differences in cable.

Tom, I prefer Analysis Plus and use their products if Zip cord and monster cable work for you thats fine, but it doesnt work for me.

Rob Analysis Plus has all the readings and results on their web site go check it out. BTW you would never catch me spening over $200 for cables.

 

[Redbone]

Subwoofer Crap....

I been researching Stereo equipment and the such for nearly 20 years now and what I have found in larger retail chaines- high end or mid range, all subwoofers just seem to have that same generic low boomy bass note on music no matter the brand. I have listened to such brands as Velodyne, Paradigm, Yamaha, Infinity, Klipsch, CSW, Boston Acousitcs to name a few.

It makes you wonder why you would even want a subwoofer in your system afterall? I am venting a bit because I am so tired of hearing pimple faced teens and white haired pot bellied salesmen tell me " Yup this is the unit its a great sub." Even when it sounds like crap, muddy, loose and boomy. Forget musical all these subs do is add the same low end boom to every song.

Anybody else notice this and is there a cure?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Yes it does sound different and there are studies to prove it.

Please cite a few. We would appreciate knopwing those elusive studies.


Maybe you just haven't listened to the right cable like Analysis plus or XLO....

Right? How so? What separates them from the rest? Please expand on this claim that they are the right cables. They must have something, other than magic, that other cables do not have.

I have done lots of experamenting with cables and it makes a noticeable difference in my opinion.

Was it under double blind listeing conditions, or just the same old sighted, unreliable testing?
So far, no one on the planet has been able to demonstrate in a reliable manner that what you claim is possible. But, you may be the first. Anything is possible, after all, right?

 

[mtrycrafts]

I been researching Stereo equipment and the such for nearly 20 years now and what I have found in larger retail chaines- high end or mid range, all subwoofers just seem to have that same generic low boomy bass note on music no matter the brand. I have listened to such brands as Velodyne, Paradigm, Yamaha, Infinity, Klipsch, CSW, Boston Acousitcs to name a few.

It makes you wonder why you would even want a subwoofer in your system afterall? I am venting a bit because I am so tired of hearing pimple faced teens and white haired pot bellied salesmen tell me " Yup this is the unit its a great sub." Even when it sounds like crap, muddy, loose and boomy. Forget musical all these subs do is add the same low end boom to every song.

Anybody else notice this and is there a cure?

Exactly. Must be all those poorly designed subs. No one out there in speakerland are able to design subs. Must be rocket science, or more.

 

[markw]

What the he!! does this have to do with cables?

I been researching Stereo equipment and the such for nearly 20 years now and what I have found in larger retail chaines- high end or mid range, all subwoofers just seem to have that same generic low boomy bass note on music no matter the brand. I have listened to such brands as Velodyne, Paradigm, Yamaha, Infinity, Klipsch, CSW, Boston Acousitcs to name a few.

It makes you wonder why you would even want a subwoofer in your system afterall? I am venting a bit because I am so tired of hearing pimple faced teens and white haired pot bellied salesmen tell me " Yup this is the unit its a great sub." Even when it sounds like crap, muddy, loose and boomy. Forget musical all these subs do is add the same low end boom to every song.

Anybody else notice this and is there a cure?

Just asking.... Apparantly, you've never heard a properly set up subwoofer.

 

[Rÿche 1]

What ever you want to believe but as I said quality cables have always made a difference in my system. I have tried lots of different brands from Zip Cord to upscale. I have had friends listen as well as myself and we do feel there are differences in cable.

Tom, I prefer Analysis Plus and use their products if Zip cord and monster cable work for you thats fine, but it doesnt work for me.

Rob Analysis Plus has all the readings and results on their web site go check it out. BTW you would never catch me spening over $200 for cables.

Um, this is not the place to be claiming that cables make a difference in sound. Incase you haven't noticed yet.

 

[Rob Babcock]

I checked the site out, Redbone, but I couldn't find the DBT results. I did see a few subjective reveiws, but no test results. Maybe I'm just missing it.

 

[Redbone]

Rob, they did test showing that what went in one end of the cable came out exactly the same at the other end, meaning the sound wasnt colored in anyway. I have read great volumes of info so I cannot remember where such info was obtained.

Mycrafts don't be so ignorant, Gee I guess the multi million dollar marketing and sales of high end cables is just a farce right?? If you go to the respective cable web sites you shall see what is the difference in each cable. You will never see a high end installer or competator using zip cord and manufacturers interconnects on there systems. Have you heard of words like signal loss, RF noise and digital Jitter- apparently not.

You can do and say what you want and so shall I. I can definatively tell you that every time I upgraded from stock crap it improved the dynamics of the system, maybe you need to have the wax cleaned out of your ears mycraft.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I checked the site out, Redbone, but I couldn't find the DBT results. I did see a few subjective reveiws, but no test results. Maybe I'm just missing it.

Since you cannot hear maybe you have problem seeing too

I ahve that problem as well. I have even called Analysis for data. No data on the amount skin effect affects their cables or other cables. No lisening tests available, nothing but snake oil by the barrel.
They do want you to try and listen for yourself though. balbla bla

 

[mtrycrafts]

Rob, they did test showing that what went in one end of the cable came out exactly the same at the other end, meaning the sound wasnt colored in anyway.

I suppose they show how other cables do not do as well? Besides, measuring differences between cables is very easy, not rocket science. However,
hearing audible differences is totally a different matter. I bet they didn't explain that, did they? Why would they? If they told you the thruth, first you would be devistated, then you wouldn't buy their cables and the company would go out of business and unemployment goes up. That is very bad.


I have read great volumes of info so I cannot remember where such info was obtained.

Please try and find just one source. Credible one, not stereopile or TAS or such.

Mycrafts don't be so ignorant,

I am sorry and thanks for pointing this out. If you can help me though by citing your references for audible differences in cables, maybe I can get as smart as you? Is that possible? So, please help me out.

Gee I guess the multi million dollar marketing and sales of high end cables is just a farce right??


Why do they need such a marketing budget to sell cables? It should be a snapp?

If you go to the respective cable web sites you shall see what is the difference in each cable.


Easy to see cable differences. Not so easy to hear cable differences. But, maybe your citatins have some latest and greates discovery?


You will never see a high end installer or competator using zip cord and manufacturers interconnects on there systems.

I bet you are right.

Have you heard of words like signal loss, RF noise and digital Jitter- apparently not.

No, I am ignorant. You said it yourself.

You can do and say what you want and so shall I.

That is easy to do. You tell what you want to. I tell what I want to. Isn't that democracy?

I can definatively tell you that every time I upgraded from stock crap it improved the dynamics of the system, maybe you need to have the wax cleaned out of your ears mycraft.


Thanks for the suggestion. Should I use ear candling?

 

[av_phile]

I have done lots of experamenting with cables and it makes a noticeable difference in my opinion.

Tsk. tsk. You're one voice crying in the wilderness, my friend. You won't get much sympathy in this forum where OPINIONS contrary to what most moderators and members have are dealt with severely.

But I personally welcome your OPINION. It's an honest OPINION based on your personal experiences with the vairous cables you've tested. That's more than I can say of STATISTICAL results from ABX tests. They're gathered using UNREALISTIC listening conditions where you have to undergo "bias-controlled" tests under sterile laboratory ambiance where you have to respond under pressure to make a response, whether you FEEL like it or not. As if such conditions also exists at home. And the implications of such a test often taxes the sensibilities of the hobbysts. It implies we just need hardware variety zip cords and anything above that is a foolish waste in this hobby.

They forgot that THIS is a HOBBY - a hobby steeped in personal subjective perceptions that can border on the foolish. Afterall, my wife entirely considers it a foolish hobby to begin with, whether I use a zip cord or not. They entirely forgot that this hobby is made up of indiividual humans complete with biases and prejudices, preferrences and tastes that are precisely what make the hobby unique to each person, exciting, challenging, unpredictable, vigorous, borderng on the insanely compulsive, addictive and silly.

They would promptly cherish some STATISTICAL evidence whose implications are very comforting for them. That's the problem, they rely on STATISTICAL PROBABILITIES! And would conveniently consign EXPERIENTIAL evidence into the realm of the absurd and the magical because their implications would demand more than what they can oblige. They nicely forget that such a position is also an OPNION, however rooted on some STATISTICAL method.

But like I said in the other thread and I'll say it again ad nauseum. THis hobby is about individual, personal and subjective biases and preferrences. It is NOT a sceintific pursuit. It is not about STATISTICS.

So Redbone, don't let these members get to you. You are well within your individual rights to declare your OPINIONS based on experiences. They are as valid as any OPINION based merely on STATISTICAL PROBABILITIES.