Subwoofer and Floorstanders

[NorseMythology]

Hello everybody, long time audio fan but still pretty noobish. Essentially I am looking to slowly upgrade my audio, 90% music and maybe 10% movies/videos.

Right now I have a Denon e300 5.1 75w per channel receiver and a pair of KEF C60 large bookshelf speakers on some homemade concrete stands to elevate them to ear level.

Specification: C60
System Type: Two-way, stand-mount
Enclosure type: Closed box
Size: 470 x 250 x 312mm (18.5 x 9.8 x 12.3 inches)
Weight: 12kg (26.4 lb)
Nominal Impedance: 4ohms resistive
Rated maximum power: 200W programme (into 4 ohms)
Frequency response: 66Hz to 20kHz +/-3dB (-6dB at 55Hz)
Sensitivity: 89dB for a pink noise input of 2.83V
Maximum output: 110dB on programme peaks under typical listening conditions
Finish: Walnut, Rosewood or Black Ash real wood veneers
System: SP3056
Drive units: B200 bass unit (SP1202), T33 tweeter (SP1210)
Crossover: SP2056

In my opinion they sound pretty darn good, they have a tweeter and an 8" woofer, so their midbass is respectable. They are about 30 years old (got them used) but in fantastic shape. I like progressive metal, dynamic symphonic music, classic rock, new age (hearts of space and Enya type),and various music in between.

Eventually I would like to upgrade everything, but I am wondering in what order I should go about it. I am considering something like Canton gle496.2 or Yamaha ns777 for floorstander and Rhythmic L12 or SVS sb-1000 subwoofers (one and eventually two).

My room is 207.5sq feet or 1660cu ft.

I am not settled on those options only, but here is basically what I am considering.

1. If I get one sub now, it will free up the C60s to focus on the rest of the spectrum, will that improve their sound or output capabilities in any noticeable way?

2. If I went with the floorstanders, would their bass extension be enough to satisfy until I can save up for a subwoofer?

3. Spend more on even better floorstander and push back getting a subwoofer for even longer.

Lastly, I havent really thought much about it, I have no plans on doing surround sound, but for stereo/music, how necessary is a center channel? And since I wont be using my rear channels, and my receiver can play multi-stereo, if I got speakers that I could bi-wire, could I hook the right front and right rear to the bi-wireable speaker and effectively have double the output running in multi-stereo?

Here is my layout, the doorway locations are approximate but the dimensions are correct, speakers are beside my tv, unfortunately only 6" from the wall.

 

[everettT]

Forget about biamp, it's not going to do anything for you. As for multi channel music, it can be very enjoyable so I'd advise a center channel. The svs subs will do just fine for music in your room and a 100hz crossover will work well.

https://www.audioholics.com/frequent-questions/the-difference-between-biamping-vs-biwiring

 

[NorseMythology]

Would putting the sub under here be unwise for any reason?

It has 14.5in clearance and the sub is 13.5" tall so it would fit, but being essentially a corner and surrounded by the couch, chair as shown... Idk

 

[shadyJ]

Would putting the sub under here be unwise for any reason?

It has 14.5in clearance and the sub is 13.5" tall so it would fit, but being essentially a corner and surrounded by the couch, chair as shown... Idk

That space should work, although it is not the greatest for ventilation. Still should be good enough for a well-made sub. Regarding height, make sure that those dimensions figure in the feet of the sub!

 

[shadyJ]

1. If I get one sub now, it will free up the C60s to focus on the rest of the spectrum, will that improve their sound or output capabilities in any noticeable way?

2. If I went with the floorstanders, would their bass extension be enough to satisfy until I can save up for a subwoofer?

3. Spend more on even better floorstander and push back getting a subwoofer for even longer.

Lastly, I havent really thought much about it, I have no plans on doing surround sound, but for stereo/music, how necessary is a center channel? And since I wont be using my rear channels, and my receiver can play multi-stereo, if I got speakers that I could bi-wire, could I hook the right front and right rear to the bi-wireable speaker and effectively have double the output running in multi-stereo?

To answer your questions in order:
1. The sub will allow the speaker to focus on the rest of the spectrum. That will reduce distortion from the speaker, but the question is, will it reduce distortion enough to be audible? You will just have to hear that for yourself, we can't really tell you without a measurement set. It will raise headroom slightly, but I doubt you were listening to stuff loud enough for that to make a difference.

2. Whether floorstanders will give you enough bass extension to go without subs depends on the floorstanders in particular. Some floorstanders will have enough bass extension for the music you listen to, other might fall a tad short.

3. True full-range floorstanders that can compete with subs tend to be expensive and large.

Also, as has been said, I wouldn't bother bi-wiring. It will not double the output. It won't have much of any tangible benefit.

 

[lovinthehd]

Seems you like your speakers a lot to keep them for 30 years. I'd add the subs before going floorstanders. Not many floorstanders are going to compete with having good subwoofage and I'd probably only consider floorstanders in a much bigger room myself.

If you are using 2ch sources for music don't think that adding a center will be worthwhile (let alone work with your current speakers optimally). I do enjoy surround music (and movies), but with 5 and 7ch setups, 3ch isn't as good (I did at one point have a 3ch setup, never looked back when I expanded to 5ch).

 

[NorseMythology]

That space should work, although it is not the greatest for ventilation. Still should be good enough for a well-made sub. Regarding height, make sure that those dimensions figure in the feet of the sub!

Great point, I will check into that.

And the couch and chair are old school, they actually have 3-4inch legs so the sub should have ventilation. My fiance will put up with quite a bit of my nonsense, so if I can find a clever way to rearrange things that is practical I can get away with it.


Edit. Apparently they are taller than that,

 

[NorseMythology]

Seems you like your speakers a lot to keep them for 30 years. I'd add the subs before going floorstanders. Not many floorstanders are going to compete with having good subwoofage and I'd probably only consider floorstanders in a much bigger room myself.

If you are using 2ch sources for music don't think that adding a center will be worthwhile (let alone work with your current speakers optimally). I do enjoy surround music (and movies), but with 5 and 7ch setups, 3ch isn't as good (I did at one point have a 3ch setup, never looked back when I expanded to 5ch).

I had a large pair of Kenwoods I got from my neighbor before I moved out of my parents back when, they didn't sound that great, and even with large woofers they lacked extension. Then my younger brother moved out of my parents house and didn't have room for his ESS AMT so I took them and put the Kenwoods in the shed. Then my dad bought the KEF from some guy and never used them so he gave them to me about a year and a half ago.

I appreciate your advice (and the others), which I think deep down I know is the smart move, who knows, maybe after I get this subwoofer I will be content and just upgrade my amp.

I also suspect that the effect of the subwoofer will be way a more noticeable and justifiable cost to my fiance than new speakers (though they will come eventually). Hell she will just be happy that sub is so small and will be invisible under that corner table, I had been warning her I would be getting a 15" ported, but upon consideration it would be overkill. Eventually a second SB1000 and that should do me for additional output.

 

[snakeeyes]

I had a large pair of Kenwoods I got from my neighbor before I moved out of my parents back when, they didn't sound that great, and even with large woofers they lacked extension. Then my younger brother moved out of my parents house and didn't have room for his ESS AMT so I took them and put the Kenwoods in the shed. Then my dad bought the KEF from some guy and never used them so he gave them to me about a year and a half ago.

I appreciate your advice (and the others), which I think deep down I know is the smart move, who knows, maybe after I get this subwoofer I will be content and just upgrade my amp.

I also suspect that the effect of the subwoofer will be way a more noticeable and justifiable cost to my fiance than new speakers (though they will come eventually). Hell she will just be happy that sub is so small and will be invisible under that corner table, I had been warning her I would be getting a 15" ported, but upon consideration it would be overkill. Eventually a second SB1000 and that should do me for additional output.

Hmm I would also consider Rythmik L12 which is 14in high. Good luck!

 

[lovinthehd]

Keep in mind just because you have a spot picked out for the sub for fit/aesthetics doesn't mean it will be the best location for it acoustically...duals helps alleviate that concern to an extent; the second sub would be more about smoothing response in the room rather than output.

Maybe you should also go listen to some more speakers to get an idea of what's available (even better, in your own room)....

 

[NorseMythology]

Hmm I would also consider Rythmik L12 which is 14in high. Good luck!

That was my other option, I like the idea of the servo-sub, even though I admittedly don't fully understand what is going on.

On the other hand, SVS seems to be a pretty damn good company as far as customer satisfaction, warranty, etc.

Could you elaborate on why you would choose the Rhythmic over the SVS?

 

[snakeeyes]

That was my other option, I like the idea of the servo-sub, even though I admittedly don't fully understand what is going on.

On the other hand, SVS seems to be a pretty damn good company as far as customer satisfaction, warranty, etc.

Could you elaborate on why you would choose the Rhythmic over the SVS?

Oh I just have experience with Rythmik. I have a LVX12 in my 2600 cu ft theater room and a L12 in my 1400 cu ft master bedroom. Duals would be cool some day. The LVX12 is night and day better than the L12 though. If you can do a ported 12in sub, you should. Just my experience though. SVS PB2000 is a ported 12 as well.

 

[NorseMythology]

Keep in mind just because you have a spot picked out for the sub for fit/aesthetics doesn't mean it will be the best location for it acoustically...duals helps alleviate that concern to an extent; the second sub would be more about smoothing response in the room rather than output.

Maybe you should also go listen to some more speakers to get an idea of what's available (even better, in your own room)....

Absolutely. Like I said she wouldn't give me to much guff for getting my sub placed correctly becausr she knows it will drive me nuts. Recently she heard me moving stuff around and asked if she wanted to know what I was doing, I just said I was messing around as usual

The great thing about that sb1000 is that it is tiny, especially compared to what she thought I would end up getting, so if it had to creep out from under the table and into the 'light', she would be okay with it.

I'd move it all I to my basement/bedroom if I had to.

The only real place to demo around here has mainly Klipsch, SVS and some others. I heard the SB1000 in a room and was blown away with that little thing, then had them demo a monster Klipsch 15" and was underwhelmed. That is about the extent of my exposure, this area kind of sucks unless I venture into Chicago.

 

[lovinthehd]

Absolutely. Like I said she wouldn't give me to much guff for getting my sub placed correctly becausr she knows it will drive me nuts. Recently she heard me moving stuff around and asked if she wanted to know what I was doing, I just said I was messing around as usual

The great thing about that sb1000 is that it is tiny, especially compared to what she thought I would end up getting, so if it had to creep out from under the table and into the 'light', she would be okay with it.

I'd move it all I to my basement/bedroom if I had to.

The only real place to demo around here has mainly Klipsch, SVS and some others. I heard the SB1000 in a room and was blown away with that little thing, then had them demo a monster Klipsch 15" and was underwhelmed. That is about the extent of my exposure, this area kind of sucks unless I venture into Chicago.

Demoing a sub in other rooms without knowing how they set it up...meh.

 

[NorseMythology]

Demoing a sub in other rooms without knowing how they set it up...meh.

Agreed, though I am not sure how well I could recall various sub performances in my home unless I had multiple to try at the same time. I feel like I would need to independently find their optimum location/settings then switch between them to really be able to differentiate anything meaningful.

As far as the demo I heard, it was in a room that was wide open to the rest of the store and still the SPL was quite substantial, I am pretty confident I would be playing it at lower levels than that.

 

[lovinthehd]

Agreed, though I am not sure how well I could recall various sub performances in my home unless I had multiple to try at the same time. I feel like I would need to independently find their optimum location/settings then switch between them to really be able to differentiate anything meaningful.

As far as the demo I heard, it was in a room that was wide open to the rest of the store and still the SPL was quite substantial, I am pretty confident I would be playing it at lower levels than that.

SPL at what frequencies? What about particular room modes? Try this article to start https://www.soundandvision.com/content/schroeder-frequency-show-and-tell-part-1

 

[NorseMythology]

SPL at what frequencies? What about particular room modes? Try this article to start https://www.soundandvision.com/content/schroeder-frequency-show-and-tell-part-1

Interesting article though I am not sure how it translates to this discussion (forgive my ignorance). Are you suggesting that I find a subwoofer who has a dip in response that correlates to my room modes for a more even overall response?

I am sure it will annoy me having the mode spikes, perhaps I will have to look into the minidsp mentioned in the article. Unfortunately my Denon only has the bare bones Audyssey, which I have come to prefer having it off anyway, but I know their higher end models have some sort of multi-sub correction technology.

What would you say is the best way forward?

 

[NorseMythology]

BTW I do have Spectroid, an app on my phone (which has 3 mics), I could probably play pink noise and record the results on the app, though I am not really sure what I would do with the results...

 

[lovinthehd]

Interesting article though I am not sure how it translates to this discussion (forgive my ignorance). Are you suggesting that I find a subwoofer who has a dip in response that correlates to my room modes for a more even overall response?

I am sure it will annoy me having the mode spikes, perhaps I will have to look into the minidsp mentioned in the article. Unfortunately my Denon only has the bare bones Audyssey, which I have come to prefer having it off anyway, but I know their higher end models have some sort of multi-sub correction technology.

What would you say is the best way forward?

No, just meant the particular room and setup rules the sub's performance, hard to go to a store and make a meaningful determination; your room is the best place to demo if you can swing it (or buy from an internet direct seller that offers satisfaction guarantee including return shipping, one thing that SVS is good for particularly, might even consider the RSL Speedwoofer 10s). Sonic memory isn't something I'd rely on in any case. Barebone version of Audyssey is 2EQ...then MultEQ, then MultEQ XT and on top MultEQ XT32 (which with the SubEQ feature can handle separate level/delay settings for two subs). I've had good results with XT and XT32, haven't used the others but any MultEQ version would be better for subs than 2EQ (which IIRC has no filters for the sub).

 

[NorseMythology]

No, just meant the particular room and setup rules the sub's performance, hard to go to a store and make a meaningful determination; your room is the best place to demo if you can swing it (or buy from an internet direct seller that offers satisfaction guarantee including return shipping, one thing that SVS is good for particularly, might even consider the RSL Speedwoofer 10s). Sonic memory isn't something I'd rely on in any case. Barebone version of Audyssey is 2EQ...then MultEQ, then MultEQ XT and on top MultEQ XT32 (which with the SubEQ feature can handle separate level/delay settings for two subs). I've had good results with XT and XT32, haven't used the others but any MultEQ version would be better for subs than 2EQ (which IIRC has no filters for the sub).

I almost added the Speedwoofer 10s in my OP, I could probably throw in the Monolith as well, thought it is unavailable until the end of August.

Funny thing today, my fiance and I went to a few audio shops today and she saw the sb2000, liked the looks and the metal grill to catproof the speaker and because she enjoyed watching it move, she also felt the extra $200 was worth it.