Sub upgrade advice? Two small or one big?

[Isak Öhrlund]

Hi,

After having been to the movies recently to watch Avengers: Infinity war, I was blown away by the deep rumbling bass that I felt in my chest and got really curious about improving my bass experience at home. However, I am still a rookie when it comes to sound and have very little experience with subs, so I am not even sure if what I am looking for is possible to have. I want to get a similar feeling to what I had at the movies, i.e. bass that you can feel in your body, but I don't want to have to watch movies at very high volume, because I can't (apartment, sleeping kids, wife...). So what can I do, if anything?

I currently have a Dali Sub E-9 F in a 5.1 setup with Dali Zensor 5 front speakers, a Dali Zensor vokal center speaker, Dali Zensor Pico rear speakers and a Denon AVR-X2300W, and I primarily want to watch Blu-ray movies. Given this setup, what would you do? Getting another sub just like the one I have? Getting a second but bigger sub? Exchanging my sub for a single bigger sub? Whatever you recommend, please consider that I can't fit a monster sub at home and I don't want to spend a fortune. AND the sub needs to come in white to fulfill my wife's style requirements

Thanks in advance.
/Isak

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

your current sub's bass only extends down to 35hz at -3db. This is far from ideal performance for HT.
Judging by your name and Dali system (not very common in usa), I guess you're from northen parts of Europe?
Getting right sub sized, depends a lot on your room size, including any open spaces as sub is trying to pressurize all of them and doesn't "see" what you consider HT area.
My go to brands in Europe would no brainer: BK Elec subs. They offer various finishes to ensure your wife is OKs the sub.

 

[Isak Öhrlund]

Yes, Sweden. The room is about 5 x 4,5 meters. Regarding the specifications, am I really looking for low frequency and/or power and/or more subs to fill the room?

 

[Mikado463]

small room so a couple of 10" subs should do IMO. I've been told if space provides two are better than one.

 

[KEW]

Yes, Sweden. The room is about 5 x 4,5 meters. Regarding the specifications, am I really looking for low frequency and/or power and/or more subs to fill the room?

If you are in Sweden, I would definitely look at XTZ Subwoofers (located in Torup, Sweden)!
https://www.xtzsound.eu/product/sub-12-17
(645 Euros)

Below is an Audioholics review of their impressive 3X12" subwoofer that establishes their ability to design great subs:
https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/xtz-subwoofer-review

 

[lovinthehd]

Another consideration, altho I don't know about availability in Europe, is transducers attached under your seat, gives you some rumble/tactile experience without bothering others so much....apartments aren't great places for chest pounding bass....but somewhat depends on the construction of your building and your neighbors' tolerance.

 

[theJman]

If you are in Sweden, I would definitely look at XTZ Subwoofers (located in Torup, Sweden)!
https://www.xtzsound.eu/product/sub-12-17
(645 Euros)

Below is an Audioholics review of their impressive 3X12" subwoofer that establishes their ability to design great subs:
https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/xtz-subwoofer-review

+1

XTZ makes well regarded products, and they happen to be local for the OP.

 

[Isak Öhrlund]

Thanks everyone for your advice.

The XTCs look interesting, especially considering that they are ported (which to my understanding gives more of that cinema feel) and are still rather compact and come in white. Otherwise I have been looking at SVS, but their ported subs (eg. PB-1000) are very big and they do not come in white. Their sealed subs have a better size and come in white (eg. SB-1000 and SB-2000), but will they do the trick? What do you guys think, XTC ported subs (eg. SUB 10.17 or 12.17) or SVS sealed subs (eg. SB-1000 or SB-2000)? And if I'm buying one of these, can I run it together with the Dali sub I have or will I have no use of that?

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[BoredSysAdmin]

Yes, Sweden. The room is about 5 x 4,5 meters. Regarding the specifications, am I really looking for low frequency and/or power and/or more subs to fill the room?

that's about 2400 cuft and we consider it a medium sized room.

Thanks everyone for your advice.
The XTCs look interesting, especially considering that they are ported (which to my understanding gives more of that cinema feel) and are still rather compact and come in white. Otherwise I have been looking at SVS, but their ported subs (eg. PB-1000) are very big and they do not come in white. Their sealed subs have a better size and come in white (eg. SB-1000 and SB-2000), but will they do the trick? What do you guys think, XTC ported subs (eg. SUB 10.17 or 12.17) or SVS sealed subs (eg. SB-1000 or SB-2000)? And if I'm buying one of these, can I run it together with the Dali sub I have or will I have no use of that?

SB-1000 would not be really great for HT in 2.4k cuft room. Ported subs would have more output.
If you could get XTZ 12.17 - you won't be disappointed.

 

[snakeeyes]

White subs are not that popular in the USA for some reason (personally I think white would sell well), so if white is a requirement, you will have issues finding good ones. The SVS SB1000 is not very powerful and should be used in a small closed room. It will be a disappointment performance-wise in a medium room. Adding a 2nd one would help only a few DB. I would avoid it and look at a ported 12in black sub from SVS, Rythmik, HSU, and Monolith. My Rythmik LVX12 is great in 2600 cubic feet. Good luck!

 

[Irvrobinson]

I own an SB1000 in white, and in a medium sized room just one is surprisingly good for music and modest movie use. (That system is in my SoCal apartment, not my primary home, so 110db bass is not something I aspire to in it.) Even at modest 80db average listening levels for action movies it makes me nervous that a neighbor will complain. (I'm in a high floor unit.)

One option to consider is to buy four white SB1000s. You'll get remarkably even bass, and I'd guess with room gain pretty good 25Hz output. Sort of pricey at US$2160, but if you want white, small, and reasonable quality, it's a thought.

 

[KEW]

Tell us what kind of pricing you are looking at!
All XTZ product reviews I have read indicate very well engineered products.
Generally I am used to seeing the prospect of buying USA products fade once shipping etc is factored in; however, SVS may have extended its distribution network to include Europe?
My thinking is import duties would put the SVS out of the running (and you are not giving up quality to go with XTZ). I would think the sub 12-17 at 645 Euros would be hard to beat when looking at final pricing in Sweden, but without knowing the specifics, I may be completely wrong on this!

 

[Isak Öhrlund]

Here's what the alternatives cost per unit where I live:
XTZ 10.17, ~ 630 $
XTZ 12.17, ~ 740 $
SVS SB-1000, ~ 630 $
SVS SB-2000, ~ 1030 $

Dual SB-2000 is beyond my budget, so what else? Can I match any of these with my current sub?

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[KEW]

The pricing on the SVS subs is not as bad as I expected! But, it is safe to say, a XTZ 10.17 will be more powerful than a SB-1000 for filling your room.
Since you mention the movie bass/LFE experience as your objective, you need something to reach to around -3db at 20Hz; the 10.17 claims exactly that and the 12.17 claims -3dB at 19Hz. It takes a very good 10" driver to put out 20Hz and I expect the major difference between the 10" and 12" is how loudly they can produce those lowest frequencies.
I like the XTZ design because they are reminiscent of Hsu subs with the option of sealing one or two ports and three different EQ settings to further tune your sub to the room acoustics. I wonder if XTZ didn't use Hsu products as a starting point for their own design (it would be a smart choice)!

As for using your new sub Dali sub E-9 F, if you are using a program like Audyssey, I cannot be too optimistic that it would work well.
Here is the issue:
(I don't pretend to know exactly what Audyssey does, but the following is a reasonable guess!)
First you will need to manually level match the two subs - not a big deal.
Now Audyssey will treat the two subs as one and do frequency sweeps. Lets assume your Dali sub drops off around its -3dB point which is 37Hz, so Audyssey will see a drop off below 37Hz but still see response at 20Hz (from the new sub). Accordingly Audyssey will boost the signal below 37Hz to compensate. The new sub can handle this, but Audyssey is applying Kryptonite to the Dali Sub. One of the worst things you can do to a ported sub (the Dali) is boost the signal below its tuning frequency!
Since your objective is to get a sub that produces the frequencies below the bottom end of the Dali, any sub that accomplishes that will be problematic!
Also know that upgrading your AVR to Audyssey XT32 will not remedy this!

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Mixing and balancing different subs is possible, but a not easy task to blend them seamlessly.
I doubt you could achieve good results with AVR alone, maybe if your AVR had Sub EQ - it would allow dual subs auto calibration. I think lowest model which has this feature is AVR-X3400H.

Also, I've already mentioned BL Elec. Not sure why did you decide to not take it to your shortlist.
It easily matches in performance both XTZ and SVS. I also come in a white finish and smaller 10" down firing
http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/XLS200-DF.htm

 

[KEW]

Mixing and balancing different subs is possible, but a not easy task to blend them seamlessly.
I doubt you could achieve good results with AVR alone, maybe if your AVR had Sub EQ - it would allow dual subs auto calibration. I think lowest model which has this feature is AVR-X3400H.

The addition of SubEQ really won't make a difference!
What it does is automate the level and phase matching of the two subs. After that, XT 32 will EQ the two subs as one as described above!

I agree that the BK subwoofers are worthwhile candidates!

 

[Isak Öhrlund]

Alright, sounds like I'll have to ditch my Dali.. In that case, I'll probably start with one sub and add another one when there's budget for it. So either the XTZ 10.17 or the 12.17.. BkElec isn't available in Sweden it seems.

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[tyhjaarpa]

Alright, sounds like I'll have to ditch my Dali.. In that case, I'll probably start with one sub and add another one when there's budget for it. So either the XTZ 10.17 or the 12.17.. BkElec isn't available in Sweden it seems.

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You can order directly from their website: http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/monolith-df_Plus.htm delivery to Sweden should be around 50€. I personally run dual XXLS-400 DF from them and I have been really happy with them. I was considering SVS as well but BK was a lot cheaper, choose BK over XTZ as it offers alot better WAF.

 

[KEW]

I was considering SVS as well but BK was a lot cheaper, choose BK over XTZ as it offers alot better WAF.

What was the WAF benefit of BK over XTZ? Size? Finish?

Does the BK offer means to tune the FR of the subwoofer?

I don't have a dog in this hunt, the only reason I posted was because I saw Isak was from Sweden and remembered XTZ was located in Sweden and seems to be a forward-thinking company!

I am glad to see Isak is looking at products made on Europe! While we are lucky to have serious competition between several great ID sub manufacturers, there is nothing to suggest USA subs are of better quality than BK or XTZ and I don't think it makes sense to put your money into shipping/import duties instead of the hardware!

 

[snakeeyes]

WAF is something we can’t help much with.... LOL Normally the sub speaker cabinet needs to be sizable to get the best results. A sealed 15 would be a little smaller than a ported 12 but maybe not small enough to be accepted... Personally I have a dedicated theater room and stay out of the living room area... Good luck!