Sub $1k AVR Upgrade Suggestions?

[Award]

I've posted quite a while ago on this topic, but wishlists and research goes out of date fast! I currently have a 5 year old Onkyo 502...it's performed well, but occasionally shuts down on its own these days. I'd like to know what to replace it with when it finally goes (maybe soon with hot whether coming...)

I'd definitely like an upgrade this time around. I'm not overly brand conscious, and am pairing it with mid-range JBL Studio L speakers (L820 wallmounts as the mains right now for space requirements, thus sub needed (Velodyne 12") w/ wallmount 4-way center, and L810 l/r surrounds. That said, due to durability concerns (and the fact that I don't like their non-utilitarian near-buttonless front bezel designs) HK is pretty much the only brand I'm steering away from, pretty much anything else is on the table...Onkyo, Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, Pioneer, whatever.

The Onkyo 502 is a good performer overall, but sometimes feels a bit muddled or "veiled"...the clarity isn't what I wish it to be at all times. This can be the result of anything from the amp, power, ADC's, DACs, etc.
"Direct" mode isn't helpful (on any AVR) due to the lack of a low-end on the mains...so I need an AVR with a good quality DSP to get the sub going, so the ADCs & DSPs are usually being used regardless of source. I know the speakers are capable of much more than they're giving now...they're not Athenas, but they're good for what they are.

I DON'T need high volume levels, I'm sitting practically on top of the speakers half the time, so low volume is good. I use, on average, between vol level
20 and 40 on the 502, depending on source. Clarity & detail (especially at low to mid volume) is king!)

My input sources are/would be:

A) Yamaha DV-C750 SACD/DVD-A player via 5.1 analog in.
B) PC delivering lossless FLAC audio via EMU-0404 USB DAC (good DAC to analog in.) (musical tastes : Classical, Celtic Trad., Jazz primary, some
electronic, many others secondary, rarely EVER "rock" or "pop".)
C) PC delivering movies via SPDIF (Creative X-Fi Titanium.)
D) PC & Consoles delivering game content in either HDMI or SPDIF either uncompressed or DTS-C/DD-L formats. Good AC3 decoder would come in handy!)
E) Blu-Ray from a PS3 over HDMI



Features that are important:
A) HDMI input including video....I'm tired of messing with a thousand cables and external switch boxes...real HDMI support, and 3+ inputs would be very
helpful.
B) Reduced heat output. The 502 isn't nearly as bad as the new Onkyos that famously burn hot, and I realize all AVRs output a good deal of heat, but, even on for a short time, the 502 feels like a space heater if you hold your hand above it...not good for room heat, other equipment, nor the electric bill.
C) Along with the former, an amp that isn't overly zealous on the power consumption wouldn't be a bad idea!
D) Must handle DTS & Dolby Digital (what AVR doesn't these days?)
E) Built in XM Radio "home dock" support wouldn't hurt, and is preferable to Sirius, but not essential as I have an external box for that.
F) Ability to send digital inputs out through analog outs would be nice...the 502 can't do it, so I can't send digital input out to my HeadRoom headphone amp.


I'm looking for something that's a definitive upgrade, at the under-$1k price range....obviously the lower the price the better, so long as it's a matter of sacrificing power, or excessive numbers of inputs (that I don't need) instead of sacrificing SQ or the stated needed features.

I'm looking forward to hearing the things I hadn't thought of, and the brand flame wars to come!

 

[selden]

Since a significant fraction of your inputs are high-quality analog, you might want to investigate Marantz 5000 series of receivers. Supposedly their analog circuitry tends to be somewhat more enjoyable than other companies'. But i'm biased, and some people like to argue that all amps sound the same.

However, Marantz generally does not include any way to add to the bass response, so their receivers may be a poor match in that regard.

 

[krzywica]

Since a significant fraction of your inputs are high-quality analog, you might want to investigate Marantz 5000 series of receivers. Supposedly their analog circuitry tends to be somewhat more enjoyable than other companies'. But i'm biased, and some people like to argue that all amps sound the same.

However, Marantz generally does not include any way to add to the bass response, so their receivers may be a poor match in that regard.

I would argue that most amps sound the same. This certainly does not hold true for a receiver though as they can sound completely different even a different model in the same line depending on what processing and filtering is applied/equipped.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

For 1k you AVR budget can really go high. I approve marantz rec, but you have more than one option.
Marantz SR5004 will give you everything you need plus some money in the pocket:
but Still in your budget is 6004 which will give you:
Front USB Ipod/iphone Audio Port
included RX101 Bluethooth/IR reciever
1 extra HDMI in (4 vs 3)
second hdmi out
fourth optical audio in
110w x 7 vs 90w x 7

Denon AVRs Also should be strongly considered

 

[Award]

Since a significant fraction of your inputs are high-quality analog, you might want to investigate Marantz 5000 series of receivers. Supposedly their analog circuitry tends to be somewhat more enjoyable than other companies'. But i'm biased, and some people like to argue that all amps sound the same.

However, Marantz generally does not include any way to add to the bass response, so their receivers may be a poor match in that regard.

I'm not so sure I'd go by "significant fraction" being analog in terms of "listening time"...I'd say projected use would be 50/50 split between analog music and digital movie/game/other. Obviously, though, for a non-HDMI SACD player, analog is the ONLY input, and while I'd gladly use the AVR's DACs for music, I doubt that either the output from an X-Fi TI or the DACs of even that Marantz would be better than the EMU-0404 (second-to-highest DAC chips from Cirrus.) (Although for sub separation we're going from DAC->ADC->DSP->DAC)

Still, that Marantz 5004 is a pretty lovable piece of equipment....your recommendation is definitely a front-runner at the moment...there seem to be good opinions of the SQ on Marantz in general compared to others.

As for "adding to base response", I'm really only worried about the crossover filter, not augmenting the sound beyond any EQ-ing going on.

Any thoughts on how hot or power friendly Marantz is compared to Onkyo? If I remember correctly Marantz & HK are both high current amps?

I'm certainly looking forward to other input, but you definitely have me drooling a bit on this one

 

[Award]

For 1k you AVR budget can really go high. I approve marantz rec, but you have more than one option.
Marantz SR5004 will give you everything you need plus some money in the pocket:
but Still in your budget is 6004

Denon AVRs Also should be strongly considered

I like some of the features on the 6004...especially the extra HDMI connections (and the dust cover for the buttons)...but for $400 or so more more, I'm not sure the extra money since I don't need the extra power, the USB, or the Bluetooth. It still reaches beyond budget a bit, where the 5004 fits nicely in.

As far as Denon vs. Marantz....if I'm not mistaken they're either the same company or manufactured together, right? What differences do there tend to be between similar brackets of Denon vs. Marantz receivers?

 

[selden]

By "significant fraction" I was alluding to the fact that you have an analog SACD player plus an external DAC. Many people use only digital connections. Sorry I wasn't more explicit.

A selection of crossover frequencies is available in the 6004.

My understanding is that Onkyo equipment tends to run quite a bit hotter than most other manufacturers' hardware. I can't comment on that from personal experience, though. I have my Marantz equipment on the top shelf of an open-air shelf assembly. When I put my hand on it, one corner is quite a bit warmer than the rest of the top of the hardware. I've never actually measured the temperature. (i have an AV8003 pre/pro + MM9000 multichannel amp. I dunno if the heat pattern is the same on their receivers.)

If you want to get a highly efficient AVR, you might want to look at the Pioneer Elite VSX-23 and VSX-25 AVRs which have digital (ICE) amps. They're not so good with low impedance speakers, though.

I have to admit that I don't know of any AVRs which convert digital audio to line-level analog outputs, except for their preamp outputs (if any).

 

[selden]

As far as Denon vs. Marantz....if I'm not mistaken they're either the same company or manufactured together, right? What differences do there tend to be between similar brackets of Denon vs. Marantz receivers?

Although they're owned by the same holding company (D&M Holding), they're still mostly separate. So far as I know, only some of the Marantz Blu-ray players are actually rebadged Denons.

Their receiver designs are quite different. In particular, Denon AVRs tend to have more features than Marantz provides. E.g Audyssey MultEQ XT is available in most Denon receivers, while Marantz has only MultEQ. A significant defect in this regard is that Marantz equipment can either decompress the lossless audio formats or apply Audyssey. They can't do both. This usually is a non-issue, since most BD players can do the decompressing and send high-def LPCM to the AVR. Ironically, Marantz BD players only decode the lossy core encodings into LPCM.

 

[Award]

By "significant fraction" I was alluding to the fact that you have an analog SACD player plus an external DAC. Many people use only digital connections. Sorry I wasn't more explicit.

That's a good point. Though given the convoluted DAC/ADC/DSP/DAC loop, I'd be open to A/B-ing digital input from the EMU0404 on a new AVR...never know which could be better...if it uses good DACs internally.

A selection of crossover frequencies is available in the 6004.

How about the 5004? Definitely more affordable...less features I don't need. Marantz specs just list "selectable"...I'd assume the same for both. Hopefully more options than the Onkyo 502...or the fixed 80 on the SACD player...that was the big criticism even in the AH review at the time. (Though I've recently found I like using 80 to eliminate boominess in the mains for some music...so not a big deal overall.)

My understanding is that Onkyo equipment tends to run quite a bit hotter than most other manufacturers' hardware. I can't comment on that from personal experience, though. I have my Marantz equipment on the top shelf of an open-air shelf assembly. When I put my hand on it, one corner is quite a bit warmer than the rest of the top of the hardware. I've never actually measured the temperature. (i have an AV8003 pre/pro + MM9000 multichannel amp. I dunno if the heat pattern is the same on their receivers.)

I know on the recent models the Reon video chip is the source of the blazing temperatures (whether that's good or not, is still a debate.) My 502 doesn't have that, but just placing your hand 6-12 inches above the giant heatsink in the middle you can feel radiating convection heat....in the summer, it gets nasty, elevating room temp faster than the PC (kind of handy in winter though... )

If you want to get a highly efficient AVR, you might want to look at the Pioneer Elite VSX-23 and VSX-25 AVRs which have digital (ICE) amps. They're not so good with low impedance speakers, though.

I have to admit that I don't know of any AVRs which convert digital audio to line-level analog outputs, except for their preamp outputs (if any).

I admit being kind of intrigued by the class D digital amps...I've heard of what they can theoretically do, but their newness and lack of major distribution makes me a bit leery of getting one...tempting...though as far as I can tell the power consumption isn't all that much better than normal, and there's still a shortage of reviews of real samples compared to traditional amps.

 

[Award]

Although they're owned by the same holding company (D&M Holding), they're still mostly separate. So far as I know, only some of the Marantz Blu-ray players are actually rebadged Denons.

Their receiver designs are quite different. In particular, Denon AVRs tend to have more features than Marantz provides. E.g Audyssey MultEQ XT is available in most Denon receivers, while Marantz has only MultEQ. A significant defect in this regard is that Marantz equipment can either decompress the lossless audio formats or apply Audyssey. They can't do both. This usually is a non-issue, since most BD players can do the decompressing and send high-def LPCM to the AVR. Ironically, Marantz BD players only decode the lossy core encodings into LPCM.

I did notice a few comments about that. You're right though, I haven't seen many BD players that didn't convert those formats internally, and despite not being the audiophile's choice, I still love the PS3 even as a dedicated BD player...the upgradability is nice since it does everything on the CPU in software. May be a bit hotter than a stand-alone, but for the price, it's stunning quality. It still amazes me that it's the cheapest of Sony's (non trashy) BD players....so long as you don't need a universal IR remote or useful on-player color calibration.

 

[Award]

I'm certainly still open to other suggestions, but given the comments here, I think I've definitely narrowed it down (so far) to the Marantz 5004, or the Denon 2310CI (same price class.)

It sounds like Denon tends to pack in "more features"....but beyond additional features, what differences should one expect between Denon and Marantz (in terms of features, durability or SQ)? Seems largely like different faces on the same machine in a way (which was the point of the merger, I suppose.)

I'm tempted by the marantz 6004, but since it (as far as I can tell) is the same machine as the 5004 but with additional inputs/features, may not be worth the upgrade for me....90w/ch is fine (my Onkyo 502 has 75 and is more than adequate for the room....so long as the amp doesn't tend to attenuate too much past the half way point....if it would "last forever" it'd make sense to get more power if it changed rooms....but I doubt it'll be leaving a small room in its lifetime....

It's worth noting that the unit gets a LOT of usage....used probably somewhere around 20+ hours a week....on for hours at a time.. I won't be buying until my current unit breaks...the little Onkyo has held up well for 5 or so years....I just have a feeling this (hot) summer will be its demise (or it will be fine and will run forever...)

 

[Award]

One other addendum of interest....it is the DSP->DAC that's the worst sound killer on the Onkyo 502/520.....I tossed it in "Direct" mode (I forgot all about it...first time I tried it since getting the external DAC instead of using the AVR's DAC from SPDIF. In Direct, the speakers really become much clearer....if I kick it to stero with the DSP in place, it gets veiled again (granted, the Velodyne DSP-4000 (or something like that) isn't the most musical sub around...but it's good enough when playing SACDs to analog in (which is always "Direct" mode with an LFE channel), even though Yamaha SACD player's DACs aren't close to the stand-alone PC DAC....thus, I can say with certainty the less-than-perfectly musical sub ISN'T the thing that's muddling the sound.

So great quality DACs, ADCs, & DSP are definitely important in whichever AVR I get! (Still, interested in the Denon vs. Marantz differences though!)

Thanks everyone so far for your input!

 

[krzywica]

One other addendum of interest....it is the DSP->DAC that's the worst sound killer on the Onkyo 502/520.....I tossed it in "Direct" mode (I forgot all about it...first time I tried it since getting the external DAC instead of using the AVR's DAC from SPDIF. In Direct, the speakers really become much clearer....if I kick it to stero with the DSP in place, it gets veiled again (granted, the Velodyne DSP-4000 (or something like that) isn't the most musical sub around...but it's good enough when playing SACDs to analog in (which is always "Direct" mode with an LFE channel), even though Yamaha SACD player's DACs aren't close to the stand-alone PC DAC....thus, I can say with certainty the less-than-perfectly musical sub ISN'T the thing that's muddling the sound.

So great quality DACs, ADCs, & DSP are definitely important in whichever AVR I get! (Still, interested in the Denon vs. Marantz differences though!)

Thanks everyone so far for your input!

If this is the case most newer receivers have the option to turn the EQ off fer certain sources or modes. I would be willing to bet thats what you are hearing when choosing the "straight" or "pure/direct" mode on the receiver.

 

[Nemo128]

How bout an Onkyo TX-NR906?

 

[Award]

If this is the case most newer receivers have the option to turn the EQ off fer certain sources or modes. I would be willing to bet thats what you are hearing when choosing the "straight" or "pure/direct" mode on the receiver.

It is, but without the DSP, the sub gets dropped from the mix...and with wallmount mains (6" woofer, sealed cabinet), while the bass can be surprisingly convincing, sometimes you miss a lot without the lows. The 502 was low-end enough it doesn't actually have an EQ to speak of....not even the simplistic "preset" ones (I don't actually mind lack of EQ since I prefer either external EQ or soft-EQ (for PC sources) to anything an AVR can conjure...). It's definitely quality loss from the processing & conversion process.

On my next AVR, I'd like the processing to be good enough to not require use of "pure" or "direct" (sub-less.) (I strongly doubt the Onkyo 502 (/520) uses overwhelmingly good quality processing of any type, so most anything will be an upgrade, I suppose>)

 

[Award]

How bout an Onkyo TX-NR906?

Not exactly sub-$1k


I was super interested in the Marantz....then I noticed reports of the "pop of death" problem....not only is that frightening from a lost money/time/inconvenience perspective, but a little frightening for potential ear damage too (I once had a cheap Aiwa that would randomly blast high pitched pop sounds as it died.....certainly not pleasant to the ear....)

I'm sure it's a "small percentage" but the concept of it being possibly a ticking time bomb makes me look at Denon again....though I'm afraid with them of the heavy video lag some have mentioned.

So at the moment I have:
Onkyo: Runs too hot...other than that, nothing inherently wrong.
Marantz: Top music & analog sound, may implode, runs slightly hot.
Denon: Good all around, bad video lag a problem.
HK: What WERE they thinking with the button layout/panel??
Yamaha: ?
Pioneer Elite: Odd dealer restrictions make it improbable choice since my favored AV dealers are all online...

*Sigh*....makes me hope my Onkyo holds up for a long time...imperfect sound and all!

 

[sholling]

Not exactly sub-$1k

You can pick up a refurb TX-NR1007 for that.

 

[Award]

You can pick up a refurb TX-NR1007 for that.

Actually it looks like you can pick up a new one for not too far off that mark...(the 906 mentioned above is running for over $2k....but appears to actually be because it's discontinued.)

That unit's definitely in the running now, thanks for pointing that out.


The front runners at this point (now that Marantz is out) seem to be:

Yamaha V1065, Yamaha V2065 (MAYBE...pushing the budget)
Denon 2310CI, Denon 3310 (MAYBE...pushing the budget)
Onkyo 807, Onkyo 1007 (MAYBE...pushing the budget)


I'd prefer sticking to the lower price brackets, (1064, 2310, 807) but haven't ruled out the higher price brackets. I still have to figure out which brand tends to better be matched to my speakers and listening preferences.

I have nothing against Onkyo I've been happy with my 502 and 604 (the 604 is on the movie HT, not the critical listening setup.) Somehow I just have in my mind that I might not mind switching this time. The wickedly hot Reon may be part of that as well (I love a good vid scaler...but my 502 is already hot enough ) Still, it's a very tough choice between these!


One question I still have is the usefulness of the bi-amp capable AVRs...the ones where you can use the rear surround posts as bi-amps for the mains....originally I thought bi-amping was really designed to have two different brands of amps powering each half....one brand that you like for highs, one brand you like for lows....is there any merit at all to bi-amping off the same brand/model amp section? Unlike bi-wiring, it's at least separate amp circuits.....but it's the same sonic profile amp...

 

[30PlusRetlaw]

You can pick up a factory refurbish with 1 year warrantie denon 3310ci for $790 plus shipping. 2310 $540 both have the best offer option. Shipping is too$$ 61 bucks for shipping is too high. On Ebay look for the Dakmart store, they are a Denon authorize dealer