Streaming FLAC

[ashergill]

I have a small but growing collection of FLAC files on my PC. I am in the process of setting up a 2-channel system and would like to be able to stream the FLAC files to it. This will be a music-only setup, with no TV. I will be using a Denon 3311 receiver, which I understand is capable of playing FLAC files and can be networked, of course.

So, I was thinking of converting my old PC into a media server by installing freeNAS on it. My question is, will I simply be able to browse to the FLAC files sitting on the freeNAS/PC from the Denon and play them? Or, is there something more to it?

Even if this is possible, an additional concern is that without a TV attached to the setup, browsing FLAC files on the server will be too cumbersome. What are some ways around that? I have considered converting FLAC to Apple lossless, and then streaming via iTunes+AppleTV (attached to the Denon; or enable AirPlay on the Denon.) I would like to avoid having to convert so many files though.

Another option seems to be the SqueezeBox Touch, which will require another $300. I don't mind spending that if the convenience of streaming and browsing will be significantly better. I've also considered the Sonos, but am quite interested in setting up the freeNAS (never had a home server before - would like central storage, and be able to stream video/pictures etc. to the media room, which is a separate setup already in place.) Also, Sonos is even more expensive than SB Touch.

Your thoughts and other recommendations will be appreciated

 

[TLS Guy]

I have a small but growing collection of FLAC files on my PC. I am in the process of setting up a 2-channel system and would like to be able to stream the FLAC files to it. This will be a music-only setup, with no TV. I will be using a Denon 3311 receiver, which I understand is capable of playing FLAC files and can be networked, of course.

So, I was thinking of converting my old PC into a media server by installing freeNAS on it. My question is, will I simply be able to browse to the FLAC files sitting on the freeNAS/PC from the Denon and play them? Or, is there something more to it?

Even if this is possible, an additional concern is that without a TV attached to the setup, browsing FLAC files on the server will be too cumbersome. What are some ways around that? I have considered converting FLAC to Apple lossless, and then streaming via iTunes+AppleTV (attached to the Denon; or enable AirPlay on the Denon.) I would like to avoid having to convert so many files though.

Another option seems to be the SqueezeBox Touch, which will require another $300. I don't mind spending that if the convenience of streaming and browsing will be significantly better. I've also considered the Sonos, but am quite interested in setting up the freeNAS (never had a home server before - would like central storage, and be able to stream video/pictures etc. to the media room, which is a separate setup already in place.) Also, Sonos is even more expensive than SB Touch.

Your thoughts and other recommendations will be appreciated

It is possible, but I'm not sure how. FLAC is really an archival standard and was not intended for streaming. It will eat a lot of bandwidth. You will need a a unit that not only stores the FLAc files but can stream them.

I don't know what products are out there.

You will have a bigger problem on the front end. FLAC support is not required in the DNLA standards, but it is not excluded either.

So you will have to carefully do your home work.

I store FLAC files on my computer drives and then use OGG and for the big HD files, MediaMonkey. I use Firewire to my RME DAC, and then optical to my Marantz AV8003 and it works fine. I'm not using any wireless connections.

 

[bikemig]

I use a mac mini as a server for my music. You will really like the SB touch. It sounds great from the analog outputs if you want to connect it via the RCA input; it also has digital outputs. The screen and the remote on the SB touch make it really easy to access your music. Plus if you decide to stream music throughout your house, it is easy to synchronize your various SB devices. The phone support for logitech/SB is very good and there is an active community of users so you will have no trouble getting the info you need to get it up and running.

 

[sholling]

FLAC files can be streamed just fine over 802.11n wireless (and probably 802.11g as well) - they aren't that big. Many (but not all) DLNA servers serve up 16bit flacs just fine but most of them either fail to recognize 24bit HD flacs or down-sample them to 16bit. I actually prefer using network shares over DLNA because I like my filing system better than the way DLNA displays and it bypasses DLNA's limitations - but not all playback devices can access media shares.

WinAmp with the flac plug-in will play 16bit flacs but does not have a DLNA server, Media Monkey 3.x and Foobar will play 24bit 44/48/88/92/192khz flacs but neither have a DLNA server. However the upcoming Media Monkey 4 Gold is supposed to include a DLNA server that in theory will serve up 24bit flacs without down-sampling. This is important to me because I mostly buy HD Flacs these days.

At the receiving end, many devices are capable of playing flacs but most are ether limited to 16bit or in the case of a few receivers 24bits at up to 96khz. It just depends on the receiver. BTW I don't know why you couldn't or wouldn't plug a small cheap HDMI computer monitor into the receiver so that you have access to bigger/better menus that you can see from much farther away.

I have not tried FreeNAS but if you have a Windows license for that old PC then it might be worth waiting for MM4 Gold. One Gold license is good for 3 non-commercial use PCs/servers.

For future reference I've been using WDTV Live media players in each room (display required). They're cheap, play 16bit (but not 24bit) flacs over shares or DLNA, DVD ISOs and VOBs over network shares over an optional 802.11n/300mb adapter. It will also play Blu-Ray MKVs via shares or DLNA but only over 100mb or better hardwired Ethernet. Blu-Ray takes a too much bandwidth for wireless. In my main listening room I'm now experimenting an Oppo BDP-93 Blu-Ray player which supports playback of 24bit 44/48/88/92/192khz flacs and BD MKVs from a compatible DLNA server - but this is a non-supported and still flaky experimental feature. I still use a WDTV Live in my bedroom because 90% of my flac collection is 16bit. Another use for the WDTV Live is that I keep an external drive attached and backup my flac collection over my network. That way in case of fire or a drive wiping virus I have backups in other rooms.

 

[ashergill]

Thank you all for the replies.

FLAC files can be streamed just fine over 802.11n wireless (and probably 802.11g as well) - they aren't that big. Many (but not all) DLNA servers serve up 16bit flacs just fine but most of them either fail to recognize 24bit HD flacs or down-sample them to 16bit. I actually prefer using network shares over DLNA because I like my filing system better than the way DLNA displays and it bypasses DLNA's limitations - but not all playback devices can access media shares.

Do you find any significant degradation in quality when the files are down-sampled to 16 bit? Also, pardon my newbie ignorance, but when you talk about a playback device in this context, what are you referring to? Is it simply the receiver? The Denon 3311 I have supports FLAC, but I'm wondering if it will simply accept a FLAC stream from an NAS and play it, or is there more to it than that?

WinAmp with the flac plug-in will play 16bit flacs but does not have a DLNA server, Media Monkey 3.x and Foobar will play 24bit 44/48/88/92/192khz flacs but neither have a DLNA server. However the upcoming Media Monkey 4 Gold is supposed to include a DLNA server that in theory will serve up 24bit flacs without down-sampling. This is important to me because I mostly buy HD Flacs these days.

I just installed Media Monkey on my PC to play the FLAC files (had been using VLC player until now), and so far like it. Any idea when the MM4 comes out? If it is supposed to have a DLNA server, I would be interested in looking into it more.

At the receiving end, many devices are capable of playing flacs but most are ether limited to 16bit or in the case of a few receivers 24bits at up to 96khz. It just depends on the receiver. BTW I don't know why you couldn't or wouldn't plug a small cheap HDMI computer monitor into the receiver so that you have access to bigger/better menus that you can see from much farther away.

A monitor is certainly an option, but just won't go well with the way our living room is decorated. I think this is where something like the SB Touch seems intriguing to me; it will probably solve the whole issue, if it works well. The specs say it will support 24 bit/96kHZ and FLAC.

I have not tried FreeNAS but if you have a Windows license for that old PC then it might be worth waiting for MM4 Gold. One Gold license is good for 3 non-commercial use PCs/servers.

I haven't tried freeNAS yet either, but want to give it a go because it is, well, free. In fact, I've never setup a server before at all. If this doesn't work, my plan is to buy WHS 2011 and give that a try. I think if I go with the SB Touch, I won't have need for the MM4 Gold, but will have to look more into this.

For future reference I've been using WDTV Live media players in each room (display required). They're cheap, play 16bit (but not 24bit) flacs over shares or DLNA, DVD ISOs and VOBs over network shares over an optional 802.11n/300mb adapter. It will also play Blu-Ray MKVs via shares or DLNA but only over 100mb or better hardwired Ethernet. Blu-Ray takes a too much bandwidth for wireless. In my main listening room I'm now experimenting an Oppo BDP-93 Blu-Ray player which supports playback of 24bit 44/48/88/92/192khz flacs and BD MKVs from a compatible DLNA server - but this is a non-supported and still flaky experimental feature. I still use a WDTV Live in my bedroom because 90% of my flac collection is 16bit. Another use for the WDTV Live is that I keep an external drive attached and backup my flac collection over my network. That way in case of fire or a drive wiping virus I have backups in other rooms.

I thought about the WD TV Live, but figure that it won't solve the difficult browsing issue that I would have with a no-TV setup. In my media room, I just added a PS3, and will try to network with that as much as possible once I have the NAS up. I should be able to stream ripped blu rays to the PS3, I think.

 

[sholling]

Do you find any significant degradation in quality when the files are down-sampled to 16 bit?

I'm still evaluating this but I do know that the way that my WDTV Live devices handle HD flacs is crude. For example it will downgrade playback of 24bit 96khz flacs to 16bit 48khz during playback but can't play 24bit 88khz flacs at all. However if I'm spending the money on HD flacs I want the full effect. I also want the ability to play multichannel (5.1) flacs even though the aren't commercially available yet because I have a small collection of multichannel media I that intend to convert.

Also, pardon my newbie ignorance, but when you talk about a playback device in this context, what are you referring to? Is it simply the receiver? The Denon 3311 I have supports FLAC, but I'm wondering if it will simply accept a FLAC stream from an NAS and play it, or is there more to it than that?

By device I meant whole range of possible devices including your receiver. Unfortunately I'm not up on the flac playback capability of the latest receivers. My 3 year old TX-NR906 never could playback flacs despite manufacturer claims and its interface is primitive to say the least. Hopefully your 3311 is much more advanced but I don't have personal experience with it. In fact I'd be grateful for a review of flac playback functionality and interface.

I just installed Media Monkey on my PC to play the FLAC files (had been using VLC player until now), and so far like it. Any idea when the MM4 comes out? If it is supposed to have a DLNA server, I would be interested in looking into it more.

It's in beta but I have no idea what the target date is but as a wild guess I'd say before the end of the year.

 

[ashergill]

Thanks for the input, Sholling. So, I ordered a couple of 2TB HDDs today and will go ahead with my plan to create a server with FreeNAS on it. This will be my first server of any kind, and I figured I'll give the free OS a try first, and if that doesn't work very well then I'll get the WHS2011.

As for streaming FLAC, I've ordered a SqueezeBox Touch as well today. I think I'll try streaming directly to the Denon 3311 first, just for the heck of it. But, I don't think that browsing will be good with the direct connection, if it works at all. I'll let you know how that goes. The SB Touch has gotten pretty good reviews from many users, which made me take the plunge.

Now, just waiting for these items, as well as my new speakers and turntable to arrive...

 

[bikemig]

The SB Touch sounds great via its analog outputs (which is how I've been using it) but you may want to try it via a digital out and rely on the Denon's dacs. If you're not happy with freenas, you may want to check out vortexbox which has gotten great reviews (and is also free), http://vortexbox.org/about/.

 

[ashergill]

The SB Touch sounds great via its analog outputs (which is how I've been using it) but you may want to try it via a digital out and rely on the Denon's dacs. If you're not happy with freenas, you may want to check out vortexbox which has gotten great reviews (and is also free), http://vortexbox.org/about/.

Hi Bikemig,

I looked at vortexbox briefly. It is my understanding that this can only be used as a music server. My plan is to have a broader media server, where I can store not only my music but also some BD/DVD rips, home videos, and pictures.

I will certainly give the SB Touch's analog out a try. Can't wait to put the whole thing together...probably another week or so before most components are in

 

[ashergill]

Just a quick update: Got the squeezebox up and running a couple of days ago, and I love it It is connected via analog into the Denon 3311's CD input, and streaming FLAC from my computer flawlessly.

I also fired up my server with freeNAS, but am finding the software fairly complicated beyond the setup (having no IT/networking background makes it much more difficult.) As such, I've decided to go with WHS 2011. Will see how that plays with the SB touch.

 

[sholling]

Just a quick update: Got the squeezebox up and running a couple of days ago, and I love it It is connected via analog into the Denon 3311's CD input, and streaming FLAC from my computer flawlessly.

I also fired up my server with freeNAS, but am finding the software fairly complicated beyond the setup (having no IT/networking background makes it much more difficult.) As such, I've decided to go with WHS 2011. Will see how that plays with the SB touch.

I going to build a WHS 2011/MM4 (beta) server from scratch tomorrow. It'll be an experiment that hopefully works out. One of my goals is to get this function off my desktop PC which is a total energy hog and effective space heater. It gets bloody hot here in the summer and don't want to have the AC fighting that thing to cool the house. Anyway I'm just waiting for the case which should be here tomorrow.

 

[ashergill]

I going to build a WHS 2011/MM4 (beta) server from scratch tomorrow. It'll be an experiment that hopefully works out. One of my goals is to get this function off my desktop PC which is a total energy hog and effective space heater. It gets bloody hot here in the summer and don't want to have the AC fighting that thing to cool the house. Anyway I'm just waiting for the case which should be here tomorrow.

My copy of WHS 2011 got here yesterday. I'm working the next 10 days straight, and won't mess with the server until I have some time off. I, too, would like to get the music/streaming off the PC and onto the server, though my server will be an old PC so probably won't save much energy etc. Anyway, I would love to know how your setup works out. I'm hoping that WHS will play nice with the SB Touch, and will be as painless as windows 7 PC has been.