STR-DN1000 & PSW505 Setup Help

[ikeyes]

Just upgraded from a 8 year old Sony HTIB to the following:

Rec = STR-DN1000
Fronts = Monitor 70
Center = CS2
Surrounds = Monitor 40
Sub = PSW505
Monoprice 12AWG

I just received all of this a few days ago, and just have it all hooked up with the following setup as of last night:

Front Crossover = 60Hz
Center Surround = 60Hz
Surround Crossover = 60Hz

I've been talking about the subwoofer setup with a friend who has the TX-SR707 and he asked what I set the LFE x-over to... but apparently I don't have this feature on my new receiver.

In the manual I've seen the following statements from the DN1000 manual:

"On setting up the active subwoofer:

- If you connect a subwoofer with a crossover frequency function, set the value to maximum"

And then I tried to pose the question to Sony support via chat (why not I figured not expecting much):

sony: the LFE on the receiver gives extra 20-120Hz frequency to the audio making it more powerful
ikeyes: hmm
ikeyes: so there is no way to adjust the LFE crossover frequency on the DN1000?
ikeyes: and if that's the case, should I be using the filtered or UN-filtered input on my subwoofer?
sony: The LFE will be automatically controlled
ikeyes: interesting...
sony: Please use the filtered input on your subwoofer to get the best sound
ikeyes: hmm ok
ikeyes: so i should use the filtered input, but then put the crossover frequency knob on the subwoofer to its maximum setting (200Hz)???
sony: yes, that is correct
ikeyes: ok thanks

So that's what I got out of them... the "automatic" LFE sounds interesting lol

The auto-calibration set all speakers to Large with a crossover of 120Hz... so that's pretty much useless. I began tweaking by setting all speakers to 80Hz and then ended up setting them all to 60Hz which is sounding great so far.

From the product description page this is a safe crossover for all my speakers unless I am mistaken, and I am a nub with all this although I think I have a pretty good understanding of the terminology etc.

Where I am getting really hung up though is the subwoofer output on the STR-DN1000 and then the filtered / un-filtered inputs on the PSW505 with the built in frequency adjustment.

I've been reading a good bit today, and the consensus seems to be that it is preferable to set the crossover for the sub at the receiver, but since I don't have that option I am wondering what my best options are for setup.

From what I understand, if I had the ability to setup the LFE crossover on my receiver then I would want to do so, and use the UN-filtered LFE input on my subwoofer... but since I either don't understand how to achieve this or don't have the ability at all what are my options?

Sorry that was long winded, I just wanted to give as much detail as possible.

 

[Seth=L]

sony: the LFE on the receiver gives extra 20-120Hz frequency to the audio making it more powerful

lol, that's the funniest thing aside from my quote i've read all week.

 

[Adam]

Welcome to the forum!

I think the issue here is one of terminology, not of an actual limitation on your receiver. "LFE" stands for "low frequency effects" and is the .1 portion of an x.1 audio track (e.g. 5.1). That is separate from the concept of bass management, which is the term used for directing lower frequencies from your speakers to a subwoofer.

Most receivers will direct the LFE track to the subwoofer by default but allow you options. The crossover that you are asking about is what you are setting when you select 60Hz (or whatever) for the crossover on your speakers. If you set that to 60Hz for a speaker, than frequencies above 60Hz are sent to the speaker and lower frequencies for that speaker are sent to the sub (there are slopes to the frequency cut-offs, but that's the general idea). The reason to either disable the crossover on the sub itself or set it to the max value is so that you don't get overlap of the crossovers and end up not playing some frequencies.

In short, you're good to go and don't need to worry about an "LFE crossover."

I'd have to check in to the filtered versus unfiltered inputs on the Polk sub. I'll let you know if I do that and find good info on it.

 

[ikeyes]

Thanks for the replies, this looks to be a great place to learn and share info! I've been doing some testing since posting earlier.

Again my friend with the Onkyo TX-SR707 has the option to actually set what they refer to as the LFE Crossover, here is the blurb from his manual:

LPF of LFE 80Hz, 90Hz, 100Hz (default), 120Hz
(Low-Pass Filter for the LFE Channel)

This setting is not set automatically by the Audyssey 2EQ™ Room Correction and Speaker Setup function (see page 46).

With this setting, you can specify the cutoff frequency of the LFE channel’s low-pass filter (LPF), which can
be used to filter out unwanted hum. The LPF only applies to sources that use the LFE channel.

Double Bass*9
This setting is not set automatically by the Audyssey 2EQ Room Correction and Speaker Setup function (see page 46).

With the Double Bass function, you can boost bass output by feeding bass sounds from the front left and right
channels to the subwoofer.

On: Double Bass function on. Bass from the front left and right channels is also fed to the subwoofer (default).

Off: Double Bass function off.

Notes:
*1 If the “Subwoofer” setting is set to “No”, the “Front” setting is fixed at “Full Band”.
*2 If the “Front” setting is set to anything other than “Full Band”, “Full Band” cannot be selected here.
*3 If the “Surround” setting is set to “None”, this setting cannot be selected.
*4 If the “Surround” setting is set to anything other than “Full Band”, “Full Band” cannot be selected here.
*5 If the “Speaker Type” setting is set to “Bi-Amp” (page 43), or Powered Zone 2 is being used (page 86), this setting cannot be
selected.
*6 If the “SurrBack/FrontHigh” setting is set to “SurrBack” (page 43), this setting cannot be selected.
*7 If the “SurrBack/FrontHigh” setting is set to “FrontHigh” (page 43), this setting cannot be selected.
*8 If the “Surr Back” Setting is set to “None” (page 70), this setting cannot be selected.
*9 This function can be set only if the “Subwoofer” setting is set to “Yes”, and the “Front” setting is set to “Full Band”.

Now do we "need" all that? I honestly don't know, not knowledgeable enough on the subject obviously... but it sure sounds like a good idea to me to be able to set the LFE channel crossover at the receiver for the cleanest possible cutt-off... but again, noob here.

I had been using the un-filtered port on my sub, and found the bass to be just plain overwhelming the rest of my system at anything above medium volume.

Tonight I switched to the filtered port, and started by setting the sub's crossover to the lowest value and 50% volume. I then reset all my speaks to 80Hz and started testing by turning up the subwoofer crossover knob to roughly the same 80Hz level.

VERY large improvement! I'm now able to crank up the volume on the sub much higher, with nothing but strong low end complementing the other speakers. Bass drum kicks are rumbling my belly now, not just sounding loud. I have a lot of tweaking to do still naturally, but I'm really happy with this improvement.

If I didn't keep the DN1000 I like both the TX-SR607 and VSX-919 as my alternate choices, which brings up another side question...

THD rating on the DN1000 = 1.0% while on the 607 & 919 its .09% & .05%

Is that going to be noticeable for someone like me using a set of Polk Monitor's? Are there other significant benefits that I am missing just going off the manufacturers spec sheets?


BTW - I picked up the John Mayer Blu-ray "live in los angeles" and it is just superb. Dolby TrueHD at 96kHz/24-bit and the audio averages 7.5-9MB/s and is just mixed really well with the band and even the crowd in the surround speakers. That wasn't the fist thing I reached for but I was looking for something with 96kHz/24-bit audio to test with and this was great because it has 5.1 and Stereo at 96kHz/24-bit. Highly recommended overall, he does an acoustic set, a set with his trio group, and then a final set with his full band.

 

[Adam]

Again my friend with the Onkyo TX-SR707 has the option to actually set what they refer to as the LFE Crossover, here is the blurb from his manual:

LPF of LFE 80Hz, 90Hz, 100Hz (default), 120Hz
(Low-Pass Filter for the LFE Channel)

My apologies! I didn't realize that. I'll have to check into that manual.

 

[ikeyes]

No apologies necessary man, but you can see why we are confused I'm sure!

Just for reference I looked at the Pioneer 1019 manual, and it doesn't mention anything about the LFE crossover either, but it does have an ability to adjust the LFE +/- dB for a little fine tuning. I'm wondering if this is an Onkyo thing, or maybe just not a feature found in most sub $500- avr's?

I'm starting to think that this DN1000 does things a little different than the norm... and you saw the laughable information I got directly from Sony.

As I mentioned, I've got all my other speaker crossovers set to 80Hz, but I don't think the DN1000 is cutting out above 80Hz from the subwoofer output and here's why, although that may be exactly what its supposed to do...

When I connect to the UN-filtered port on my PSW505 the bass is very loud, I want to use the term boomy but I'm not sure its quite there... it is detracting from the other speakers to say the least, and if I adjust its output level low enough to counter this the bass goes away with it, meaning its just much much weaker at those levels.

When I connect to the filtered port and start with the crossover knob set to the minimum 60Hz I can clearly tell that higher range is being cut out, and as I crank it up higher and punchier frequencies are heard from the sub. With this I can leave it at around 80Hz and then turn the volume up to 60-70% without anything but deep rumbling bass. However when I pass the 80Hz(ish) that my other speakers are set to crossover at... the range keeps growing all the way up to the knobs maximum labeled range of 120Hz...

Let me pose one question that will help for sure...

Do I want the subwoofer to accept the widest range possible at all times, and only limit the output frequency to the other speakers by setting their crossovers at the receiver (front/center/surrounds)???

If that's the case then I would think using the UN-filtered port on this sub would be the ideal setup, allowing anything and everything the receiver sends its way to be played...

I'm sorry if these are just stupidly obvious questions, and I've been reading as much as I can including articles here on audioholics.com but this piece of the puzzle still has me confused.

Connected to the filtered port, and adjusting my subs built in crossover to match my other speakers at 80Hz sounds the best to my ears, but I want to make sure I'm not losing any of my audio because I have things configured incorrectly.

Thanks again!

 

[ikeyes]

Adam,

Not sure if you are still following this thread, but I figured out what the "issue" was with the DN1000 and the LFE output.

By default (of course >.<) Sony thought it would be helpful to apply a +10dB gain to the LFE output when using HDMI... wasn't that nice of them?!

I turned this off, and the LFE to the sub sounds perfectly fine on the Unfiltered channel now, so I wanted to say thank you again and also let anyone else know who may read this the issue was of configuration and not limitation or w/e you want to say of the DN1000. I would guess based off the output I am hearing now that the Sony slopes off the LFE at 80Hz, and provides no means of adjustment either.

On another note... I decided to take a look at stepping up my AVR choice.

I picked up both the VSX-21txh and TX-SR707 on Saturday. I have a month to make up my mind, so I should be able to play quite a bit before making a final decision.

 

[Adam]

Hey, thanks for the update and the info! That's great to know.

Also, congrats on the new AVRs. I own the VSX-23, and a friend owns the VSX-21, and we're both happy with them. Probably the only thing that both of us give a ho-hum rating to is the remote control. If you stick around, I'd sure appreciate knowing how you think the Pioneer and Onkyo rate compared to each other.

Thanks!

 

[ikeyes]

I hooked up the Pio first, and the sound was fantastic. I ran the calibration, set my speakers to Small 80Hz and then ran it again using the 'keep speaker settings' and it got even better.

So far I only spent a few hours with that one since I had the 707 sitting there just waiting to be opened I couldn't help it.

I ran the calibration, and then adjusted to the same Small 80Hz setup. I would say the sound was noticeably warmer with the Onkyo but again that is comparing one automatic calibration with the other, I didn't start to tweak anything yet. I'm sure the Pio would sound no different with some small changes to the EQ.

I'm new to this world of sophisticated AVR's and I only have Polk Monitor's as a reference so I realize this isn't a fair showdown by any means but I can absolutely offer up an unbiased opinion that will hopefully help out others in my shoes looking to make the same decision.

I'm looking beyond these Monitors to the years ahead, so I want to go with a solid long term choice for my AVR. It'll be a few weeks at least, I have 45-days to make up my mind!

 

[Adam]

FYI, the Onkyo 707 is $500 at Amazon with free shipping at the moment. I don't know if that beats the deal that you got, but it seems like a good price compared to others out there.

 

[anamorphic96]

I hooked up the Pio first, and the sound was fantastic. I ran the calibration, set my speakers to Small 80Hz and then ran it again using the 'keep speaker settings' and it got even better.

So far I only spent a few hours with that one since I had the 707 sitting there just waiting to be opened I couldn't help it.

I ran the calibration, and then adjusted to the same Small 80Hz setup. I would say the sound was noticeably warmer with the Onkyo but again that is comparing one automatic calibration with the other, I didn't start to tweak anything yet. I'm sure the Pio would sound no different with some small changes to the EQ.

I'm new to this world of sophisticated AVR's and I only have Polk Monitor's as a reference so I realize this isn't a fair showdown by any means but I can absolutely offer up an unbiased opinion that will hopefully help out others in my shoes looking to make the same decision.

I'm looking beyond these Monitors to the years ahead, so I want to go with a solid long term choice for my AVR. It'll be a few weeks at least, I have 45-days to make up my mind!

One thing to keep in mind with the Onkyo and the Audyssey system is it rolls the highs off a bit and this is intentional. It is trying to mimic a similar eq curve used in movie theatres. However the Audyssey system does have an option to give a flat eq curve. However you have to choose this.

It is my guess that the Pioneer eq's things to be flat and this why you might think the Pioneer is a bit brighter. However the Pioneer receivers have an adjustable x-curve compensation feature which would make things a bit warmer. A very smart feature if you ask me. In fact MCACC and Audyssey are probably the two best auto set up and eq systems in receivers right now. I'm really impressed with how much you can adjust the MCACC system.

Keep us posted I hope this info helps.

 

[ikeyes]

@Adam... NICE find man, I heard it was around that price at black friday time but haven't seen it lower than $549- of late. I'll be honest, I picked up the 707 and 21txh at my local best buy... once I decide which one I'm keeping I'll worry about finding the absolute best price. With something like this I am more comfortable paying an extra $50 for the convenience of a brick and mortar experience. Also I have 45-days to return/exchange with best buy so I can take my sweet time without need to pay return shipping or restocking fees.

Otherwise I pretty much buy everything from Newegg unless they just don't have what I'm looking for even if the price is a little higher. I've been a regular customer there since 2005, have an order history 8 pages long, and have not once been anything but 100% satisfied with the customer service they provide. I may even call and ask them to price match the Amazon deal, can't hurt to ask.

@anamorphic96 - I hear you on the high end roll off (literally, HA!) and I have peeked at manually adjusting the EQ instead of the Audyssey setting.

I'll give an update onto my findings so far. My main comparison has been done between that John Mayer blu-ray, and a few select video games. I'm saving the blu-ray video comparison for this upcoming holiday weekend.

I tend to ramble, and I opened a bottle of Glennfiddich 18 when I got home from work so bear with me…

The 707 was all business right when I opened the box. Very well packaged, with ample documentation and the Audyssey microphone safely stowed away in its own cardboard box. I prefer the 707 remote overall, it is physically more comfortable in my hand and the buttons are clearly labeled and easy to read in a poorly lit environment. No matter what input I have selected the remote works, the Pio requires me to hit Receiver between each change. Not a big deal honestly, but worth mentioning.

When I flipped it around to setup the connections… WOW… impressive indeed. The physical layout of the speaker terminals make for a much easier hook up, and the physical terminals themselves I feel are much nicer than those on the DN1000 or the 21txh just in the feel. The 707 has terminals for an additional set of front wide and front height speakers… and the only speakers I have to test these out are some micro-satellite sony speakers from my previous htib setup I bought back in 2001. I can’t speak to that yet because of this, but I’ve heard good things mostly about the height speakers when watching movies. I’ll probably try hooking up the old speakers just to see what kind of output is sent to them even if it sounds lousy.

The Audyssey did a great job, but set all my speaker crossovers to 40Hz… which is technically OK for my fronts (on paper) but definitely not for my center/surrounds. I set them to 80Hz and then noticed another difference between the Pio.

The 707 allows crossover adjustment in 10Hz increments from 40Hz up and the Pio only offers 50Hz, 80Hz, 100Hz, etc… also the 707 allows the LFE channel adjustment (80Hz, 100Hz, 120Hz… see first page of this thread), which definitely works but with both these features… does it really matter? I’m running my speakers at 80Hz and the LFE out at 80Hz anyway. Cool if I had higher end speakers with the range to take advantage I suppose.

The 707 has an on screen display…  And it allows quick adjustment to the Bass, Treble, Center Speaker, and Subwoofer levels (plus a few more) so that is really handy when moving from video to video game etc.

Keep in mind with all this that I’ve spent way more time with the 707, I had the Pio hooked up for maybe 3 hours so far so I’ll be back in a few days hopefully with a similar review on the same.

I also want to stress that I’m about 6 fingers into this bottle of ‘fiddich… so I’m going to walk away now.

If anyone has any questions about the function of these I’ll be glad to test whatever I can with my available components.

 

[anamorphic96]

Nice choice in scotch. I had a bottle of the 15 a few months back and actually preferred the 12. But it was dirt cheap so I took a chance. From my reading the 18 is where things get really good. I just picked up the Laphroig Quarter Cask cask and plan on cracking it Christmas Eve.

I really like the Onkyo line of receivers. I have been using the 506 for over a year now and have been very happy. The simplicity in set up and operation is very nice and makes day to day tweaks very simple. The 7 series offers alot value at its price point and will probably be my choice this summer when they clear them out for the 708's. As of now I just want to get my room treatments in place before I move on.

Keep us posted.

 

[ikeyes]

On other thing I forgot to mention...

The kid at best buy let me know that the SC-25 Elite is now on sale for $999-

I think that it is probably overkill, but I am looking to make this purchase last for 5+ years at least so that is not out of my price range. I like the ICE Amp tech but honestly this 21txh barely warms up to the touch after hours of use.

The 707 runs much warmer, but I wouldn't say it runs hot by any means.

 

[ikeyes]

A verdict has been reached!!!

First off, hope everyone had a good holiday!

It came down to the following that made me just place my order at Amazon for the TX-SR707.

1) Connectivity:
6 HDMI, 10.2 support, Speaker terminals of higher quality with superior layout (easy/smooth to turn, space between cables is great)

2) Signal pass-through (upconvert/upscaling)…
The 21txh will not pass 1080p out to the TV via HDMI other than from HDMI inputs.
My Nintendo Wii hooked up with the standard composite cable looks substantially worse going through the 21txh! I mean worse than just straight to my TV, and horribly worse than through the 707.
The 707 will output 1080p via HDMI Out with every single input, and does it very well.

3) Remote:
The 21txh remote requires you to hit the receiver button on a regular basis, sometimes I swear I haven’t changed the setting or to another input and I still have to hit receiver before it works again.
I find the 707 remote more comfortable in my large hands, and the input selectors all light up!

4) GUI:
The 707 has an onscreen GUI that allows for adjustment of common settings (sub,center,bass,treb,etc) without interruption of playback… any such adjustments require you enter the MCACC control panel and it completely stops video/audio output. Additionally even when you get into the MCACC you can only adjust the preset (#1-6) that you had active when you entered the MCACC!

It is also worth mentioning on that note that the 707 has only one setup for audio output, meaning the settings carry across all inputs… while the 21txh allows you 6 preset audio profiles that can be changed at any time from the remote, and when you change input the AVR remembers which one you used last. This presents one of the more interesting debates I had between these two in my head… and while the 707 only has the one preset, you do get onscreen access to (most) these settings at anytime with a dedicated button on the remote.

5) Sound:

DISCLAIMER: I am a nub, I have not serious expertise in this subject other than being an amateur musician and music lover. I know what sounds good, but I couldn’t tell you how it gets to sound that way if you follow…

I love the MCACC, and I feel it does a better job of calculating the characteristics of my living room. However no matter how much tuning I did (and I’m certainly no pro here…) I could not get the same full sounding range out of my modest Polk Monitor speakers as I had out of the box with the 707. Specifically with low-end & bass frequencies.

I used a few 360 games to test this as I am primarily a gamer. Need for Speed Shift Demo and CoD MW2. I loaded up several kits in MW2 and opened a private match using the same setup each time I performed these tests. The .50 Barrett sniper rifle, all types of grenades, firing a javelin close/far, silenced weapons, automatic weapons, burst fire, shotguns, even the sound of a melee knife swing…

Need for Speed Shift was easy… there is only one race in the demo, and I used the same car each time. I listened carefully to the intro video which has some seriously loud and down low bass hits. During the race I would purposefully drive up on the rumble strips on the sides of the course in certain areas. Then after each race there was another promo video with some different footage and more cars racing/smashing/etc

I could never get my sub (PSW505) to sound as loud and low with the 21txh… I adjusted the subwoofer output level from -8.0 to as high as +6.0 and it would go from not loud enough to actually sounding like it could damage my sub if I hadn’t had it at such a low volume. The 707 has couch rumbling lows without any sound of “stress” on my sub.

I will also say that I think the Audyssey does a great job, its just not as finite as the MCACC and doesn’t give you granular control over every last setting. I love that I can setup my speakers size, crossover, etc and then still run the MCACC using those settings.

Overall I actually think the 21txh has a cleaner sound that really brought a bit more life out of my speakers, but the range just wasn’t doing it for me.

6) 7.1 and up to 10.1 Testing…

I am using a terrible pair of Sony micro-satellites from my old HTIB to test out my Front High, Wide, Rear Surround abilities with these receivers. Well I guess only the 707 on the Front Height/Wide setup as that is not available on the 21txh.

Hands down winner here… I couldn’t get the 21txh to output sound to my rear surrounds (7.1) no matter what mode I selected when playing 5.1 content. I double, triple checked to make sure they were activated in the MCACC, and I had them all hooked up before I ran the calibration so I know they were working.

The 707 has several audio modes that allow sound to be pushed to the rears, mainly the one I like the most was on the 360 which supports Dolby Digital 5.1 it has a mode called Dolby Digital EX and that gave me 7.1 with rear surround in all my 360 games… nice! I know its not really 7.1, but it sure adds to enveloping me in the sound. The cockpit view of a race car? Real nice there.

I also think the ProLogic height setup is pretty weak, as it introduces a whole bunch of processing (again terrible speakers, noob writing this review) which I didn’t care for mainly by boosting subwoofer output etc.

7) Crossovers…

The 21txh forces you to set all speakers to 50Hz, 80Hz, 100Hz, 120Hz, 150Hz, etc and nothing in-between… does this really matter though?

The 707 allows 40Hz and up in 10Hz increments for all speakers, and even allows you to set the LFE crossover to 80Hz, 100Hz, 120Hz which I haven’t seen in other receivers and I think is a great feature. Maybe for now I’ll be rocking THX 80Hz across the board, but what if I drop some real coin on some full range speakers in the future?

8) Miscellaneous…

The 707 clicks every time I change a track/scene while playing a blu-ray, and the 21txh did not do this.
I really like the Pure Audio mode on the 707 for listening to that John Mayer blu-ray concert, and I’m not sure if the Pio’s “Pure Direct” mode is the same?
The Pio has a PC style removable AC line cord… that is awesome.
I scored the 707 for $499… $100 less than the 21txh.
The Pio is sexier overall from the front, but the 707 has the better backside (which is important to me in other aspects of life as well )

I think that about raps it up… if anyone has questions I’m available otherwise I think that about does it.

 

[ikeyes]

One more thing... remember this all started with my purchase of the Sony STR-DN1000?!

I hooked it up one more time after a full week and many hours of using the 707/21txh and WOW is that thing terrible. When I first started swapping all these AVR's again and again trying different tests I couldn't really tell but WOW is it night and day now.

I would tell anybody who is looking at the STR-DN1000 to keep saving your money.