Still can't decide on sub

96cobra10101

96cobra10101

Senior Audioholic
I am on the fence still about what sub to get. I narrowed it down to;
2 SVS PC13 Ultra's (both up front)
2 Rythmik FV15HP's (both up front)
or
6 Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX's. (4 up front, 2 in the rear)

The Outlaws appeal to me the most because it would seem that more subs would create bigger sweet spots, but the SVS is the obvious better sub of the bunch, with the Rythmik a close second. Anyone here have any experience with the Outlaws?
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
Actually, based on output numbers (and sound quality IMO) the Rythmik is the better subwoofer, and at almost half the cost. The SVS is awesome, but it is bested by the FV15HP at all frequencies except 20-25Hz. See this link for reference:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/859061-post13.html

Six Outlaws??? Wow! That would be pretty amazing! I'd go that route or dual FV15HP's. It all would depend on your room, though. How big is it? What shape?
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
LOL six Outlaws, that might be a hell of a thing to try to dial-in. One thing you could do is run the speakers on 'large' in the receiver, and wire each speaker through a subwoofer by using the subwoofer's speaker level inputs, thereby turning each of your speakers into a true full-range speaker. That would be the simplest way to handle six subs.

Going with the Rythmik or SVS is almost certainly a saner approach, but with six Outlaws, you would have a more unique system, that is for sure. When I think about how I would arrange that, here is what I would try: like I said above, wire the subs via the speaker level inputs. However, if you have a 7.1 as opposed to a 5.1, I would wire the each side's side surround speaker and rear surround speaker into one sub, into the sub's left and right speaker level ins. Like left side surround and left rear surround speaker into one sub, and I would make them share a sub because the surround channel programming is usually fairly light duty, and not typically demanding of a sub, so having a sub for each surround channel would be more wasteful.

With the fronts, I would wire one sub for strict right/left channel duty and another sub which shares both right/left channel and center duty, for, like you said above, a total of four subs in the front. This ought to do justice to the heavy lifting the center has to carry, by giving it the helping hand of two subs.

I'll see if I can find a better way to illustrate what I am talking about...
 
T

templemaners

Senior Audioholic
Assuming I could place two of the Outlaws next to my main speakers, I'd do something like shadyJ is suggesting - connect those with the speaker level inputs and make your mains true full range speakers. But for the other 4, I'd just leave those as redirected bass and put them in the room where I could get the best response.

I'm sure you probably have looked over the reviews of all 3 subs... are you ok with the low end extension of the Outlaws to consider going for 6 of them? More Outlaws won't change how low they go.

It should also be asked if you have any measurement gear to help find the best places to put your subs and fine tune the response. Simply having 6 subs won't guarantee superior performance, though it's one hell of a start.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
The notion of connecting a sub to each speaker channel and thus, having full range speakers at every position sounds like a good idea in theory, but in practice, it creates more problems than it solves. The whole "sub/sat" system came into being specifically because having a full range speaker in every position does not lead to anything close to linear, accurate bass. Instead, you have independent sources of bass, each one having its own interaction with the room. If all the channels happen to be playing the same bass notes at the same time, then fine, you've got multiple subs spread around the room all playing the same thing. But if different channels are playing different bass notes, now you have all kinds of unpredictable interactions with the room and the various sources of bass. Your frequency response is going to be a nightmare and it's going to change as often as there are changes in independent speaker channels.

As to the Rythmik FV15HP vs. the SVS PB13-Ultra, while the Rythmik FV15HP is capable of more sheer SPL output at frequencies above 20Hz vs. the PB13-Ultra, that output also comes with significantly more distortion. If the PB13-Ultra didn't have all of its DSP processing in place to keep the distortion ridiculously low, it could easily crank out higher SPL figures, just at the expense of distortion is all. The Rythmik FV15HP's distortion isn't a problem. It's still below the CEA 2010 thresholds and thus, supposedly not an audible issue. SVS simply went for more aggressive control, which results in extremely low distortion and a more linear response if you are looking at the entire range from 20Hz up to 160Hz (or even a bit higher). It's a design choice is all. Either sub is capable of prodigious output. They're both great. The PB13-Ultra has a few extra bells and whistles in terms of options in its amp (high pass filter, low pass filter, two parametric EQ bands, etc.). The FV15HP's no slouch in features though either - nice low end filter settings to combat potential room gain issues ;)

No "wrong" choice between them. They're far more similar than they are different.

Anywho, back to the topic at hand. If what you want is nice, linear frequency response that is as close to the same at multiple seating positions as possible, then you'll want to get yourself 4 subs and spread them around the room. Two up front and two in back is fine. So is one on each wall - front, back and both sides. All four corners works for 4 subs as well.

The thing with using 4 subs is that - while you certainly get the most even and linear response at multiple seats, and you get that without even needing much in the way of EQ, you actually get lower SPL readings than if you use two subs or even just one. Due to the huge number of interactions between the bass waves, you create that linear response with no huge dips or peaks, but it also decreases what used to be higher SPL output numbers for the frequencies where the room and sub were reinforcing the bass. Basically, take the SPL level where a lone sub delivers a flat frequency response over a reasonable range. With 4 subs, that's the sort of SPL you'll get, but across the entire range. The whole SPL level doesn't really go up, it's just that all the frequencies that were lower or higher get evened out.

For that reason, if you're going to use 4 subs, you want them all to be individually capable of delivering the SPL level that you're after. You go from one sub to two subs and things basically get around 3dB louder with some smoothing of the overall frequency response and a couple of new dips. Go up to four subs and you knock back down those 3dB that you gained more or less, but now the entire frequency range is pretty close to even with no dips or peaks. So whatever a lone sub was delivering in terms of SPL (minus peaks due to room resonance), you can more or less expect that same SPL with 4 subs - and no more peaks. So if you liked some of the peaks that one sub was delivering, say goodbye to those and realize that if you want those same levels that the room peaks were delivering, each of the 4 subs is going to have to be able to output that level on its own!

So I take it you've got about $4000 to spend and you want some VERY loud output. Two FV15HP is the way to go out of that list if that's what you're after. Putting them both up front, you're gonna need a fair amount of EQ though, so factor that into the budget. Two PB13-Ultra is going to be very, very close behind (and have the lower distortion and greater 20Hz output that we've mentioned), plus you'll have some EQ built into the PB13-Ultra subs.

Four LFM-1 EX subs is going to be significantly quieter - on the order of about 10dB since the LFM-1 EX isn't capable of the same high output to begin with. Stacking two more up front isn't going to do much unless you want to throw your frequency response out of whack again. Stacking two front and two back will boost things up around 6dB though.

Regardless, all of your subs should be acting as one sub in essence. The idea is to use their output to create flatter frequency response, not just create 6 or 7 non-linear speakers.

If what you're after is the sort of SPL that dual PB13-Ultra or dual FV15HP can deliver, then go with either of those. Putting two more subs at the back of your room will bring your SPL DOWN, not up. You'll get flatter frequency response throughout the room, but LOWER SPL. So since it looks like you're going for very high output, go with the dual high output subs and simply factor in that you'll need additional EQ to make the response linear.
 
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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Forgive the crudeness of the diagram, its just a quickie I did in MS Paint, but I think a picture will explain what I am trying to convey better than my convoluted words.

Like I said above, two PB13s or FV15HPs would be simpler, saner, and less expensive than what the diagram depicts. They would also go easier on your amplifier and speakers, since the speakers will be tasked to play the full range in the Outlaw setup described above. Cable management with a speaker level cable system would be pretty nightmarish if you need to keep things looking neat. When I think about the cable management of that setup alone, it does make me wince, I might go for line level inputs for this very reason, although with six subs you have so many different options and freedom to experiment. Now that I think about it though, since, if I remember correctly, DTS sound track are mixed with all the bass segregated to the LFE channel, that particular Outlaw setup wouldn't make any sense. It might make a little more sense for PCM soundtracks where all the different channels are using the full range, but those soundtracks are not very common, at least not common enough to run a crazy setup like six speaker level connected Outlaw subs. I don't know how Dolby deals with the LFE though.

One thing I have to disagree with FirstReflection is that you can get increased SPLs with four subs, It depends on the placement. It depends on phase, and with that it depends on how flat of a frequency response you are after, and also where you are listening at. Of course, for every subwoofer you add gets you diminishing returns for output alone. Ideally a second Outlaw will gain you 3 db, a third will gain you 1.5, and I am guessing a fourth will get you .75. That is if they are spread around a room, but if you co-locate them you can double those numbers (again, in an ideal situation). Given those facts, if you co-locate two Outlaw subs, you can roughly match the SPLs that the PB13 or FV15HP are putting out (frequency dependent). Three co-located Outlaws should be capable of more output in theory, but that would be one wacky setup. Something like:

OO-------OO
OS---S---SO

where the Os are the subwoofers and the Ss are the speakers, so three subs tucked into a corner. That ought to get you a lot of output, but who knows until you measure it.

I guess what I like about the idea of six subs is the flexibility and possibilities for trying different things. You could do corner loading, near-field, full-range, co-locating, and with some mixture of placement and operating mode you could find a very nice balance to get a great FR with lots of output across many different listening positions, but it would take a lot of experimenting and measurements.
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
Four subwoofers would be pretty awesome, and the natural smoothing out of the FR is definitely worth the slight loss of max output IMO. After all, those Outlaws aren't output kings anyway. With that said, it would be much more fun to have four Rythmik's or SVS's, as you'd get the evenness in the FR but also still have insane output. Wow, what a dream system that would be! I'm not trying to take away from the Outlaw's, as they offer insane performance for the money considering they are 12" subs, but if you're craving ULF bass I'd go with the Rythmik's or SVS's.

Regarding the SVS vs. Rythmik, First Reflection is correct: The SVS offers a few more bells and whistles, but if you pick up an EQ of your own you'd save more money in the long run and achieve better performance. A Behringer 1124p is only $100 and would work much better than anything that is included within a subwoofer's amp. Such an EQ would be all you'd need for 2 subs IMO. And concerning the distortion comparison between the SVS and Rythmik, it's not audible, so I'm not sure why it was even brought up...

I'd get a Begringer DCX2496 for sure if I was going four subwoofers. With it you can adjust the individual crossover frequency, phase, delay, etc, which is necessary when utilizing that many subwoofers IMO. Then again, as I said before, it'll all depend on your room and the measurements/sound at the listening positions. So, back to my earlier questions about your room...:)

BEHRINGER: DSP1124P
BEHRINGER: DCX2496
 
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agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
lets see if this works...
That is ambitious to say the least and I give you credit for thinking outside the box. But, I feel your overzealous approach guarantees the following only,
  1. Overspending on electronic and subwoofers
  2. An infinite tweaking loop
  3. Losing Reference (was the problem in the source or was it introduced by you)
What it does not guarantee is that it will sound any better than a well implemented and properly calibrated 7.1 or 7.2 setup.
 
theJman

theJman

Audioholic Chief
No offense, but some anonymous person standing in his living room opining about a fan with a worn out rotor is not terribly convincing.
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
LOL - what happened to the direction of this thread? :p:)
 
M

MidnightSensi2

Audioholic Chief
From research I've read there is diminishing returns with 6. 4 tends to be the best in home theaters, one subwoofer centered on each wall in a rectangular room.

Two 1/4 length of the wall in the front is also very good and much more practical.

Obviously those are starting points, without measurements in the room. Although the 4, one centered on each wall, works pretty damn spot on in my experience when searching for flat response.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
No offense, but some anonymous person standing in his living room opining about a fan with a worn out rotor is not terribly convincing.
There is already a long thread on the eminent rotary sub. I WAS actually joking, but the rotary sub is real not just interweb BS.
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Yeah, the famous white paper on multiple subs from Harman is where a lot of the modern advice comes from. Of course, the white paper is dealing with simulations and theoretical measurements - along with a PERFECTLY rectangular room, so real world results can be quite a bit different.

However, real world, white paper, simulation - they all point to the same thing, which is that using multiple subwoofers spread out around the room doesn't really boost your output a whole lot so much as it evens out the bass response and does so at multiple seating locations.

Again real world, white paper and simulations all point to two subwoofers as being a pretty good way to gain some benefits of evening out the response at multiple seats, boosting the output vs. just a single sub and also being more practical just in terms of placement options as well as cost. If your budget remains the same, you can afford two higher quality, higher output subs vs. four lower quality, lower output subs.

I'm all for using four or eight subs if budget is no concern! Stack a pair of subs each in four locations and you can get MASSIVE output AND smoothing. But that's simply too expensive for most people. So I tend to recommend getting a pair of really high quality, high output subs. It's just more attainable and easier to set up for most people. Combine a pair of subs with some basic EQ and you can get pretty darn good results where the evenness across mutliple seats is concerned. And just percentage wise, you get the greatest gain in output and headroom with two subs as well. So just from a practical standpoint, that's why I think getting two high quality, high output subs makes the most sense :)
 
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