Standing an A/V receiver vertically

[eddie459]

I know this is a crazy question. But has anyone tried standing an A/V receiver vertically in order to save space on the depth.
I am considering having a TV stand build that would have a fold down shelf where I can install the receiver. After connecting all of the wires, the shelf would fold up and stay there in a vertical position. The IR for the remote would work by using a mirror to bounce the signal to the IR receiver. It is all fully enclosed.
Crazy I know. I am wondering if anyone has any experience doing this.
I know that if I ask the Onkyo people, they will say that "it was not designed to do this and that they can not guarantee the longer term...." blah blah blah.
I also know that products are often over engineered.
Any guesses.
I have a dining room that I converted to a TV room and do not want to use too much space. I measured everything and the new design would only come out 10 inches from the wall.

 

[highfigh]

I know this is a crazy question. But has anyone tried standing an A/V receiver vertically in order to save space on the depth.
I am considering having a TV stand build that would have a fold down shelf where I can install the receiver. After connecting all of the wires, the shelf would fold up and stay there in a vertical position. The IR for the remote would work by using a mirror to bounce the signal to the IR receiver. It is all fully enclosed.
Crazy I know. I am wondering if anyone has any experience doing this.
I know that if I ask the Onkyo people, they will say that "it was not designed to do this and that they can not guarantee the longer term...." blah blah blah.
I also know that products are often over engineered.
Any guesses.
I have a dining room that I converted to a TV room and do not want to use too much space. I measured everything and the new design would only come out 10 inches from the wall.

It wasn't designed to cool itself in that position so, unless you put a fan on it, I wouldn't recommend it. Heat kills everything, so do it at your own risk. Running hard, they get damn hot.

 

[BMXTRIX]

To add to the above, not only are receivers designed to vent upwards through the system very specifically, Onkyos have a tendency to run warm.

Finally, you may NOT enclose your receiver! It's like stuffing you into a plastic bag. YOU will suffocate yourself if you do that, and doing it to a receiver will do the same thing. If you have a furniture builder who doesn't understand the first thing about the requirements for cooling A/V, then may I suggest that you are dealing with the wrong person. If you are doing the work yourself, then it's a good time to learn that A/V equipment requires ventilation.

When I worked residential, the absolute number one issue I saw in high-end installations was people that built cabinets for their gear and the cabinets were not properly vented. Their gear failed within 30 days over and over and over. Then THEY complained.

 

[Sylar]

Do receivers/amps have any 'thermal protection'? Like shut down automatically in certain scenarios?
Is this possible? If not, why?

 

[M Code]

Do receivers/amps have any 'thermal protection'? Like shut down automatically in certain scenarios?
Is this possible? If not, why?

An AVR or amplifier has different types of thermal protection, usually a sensor on the amplifier's heat sink , plus the power transformer has an internal thermal breaker. These are required by UL, and also provide hardware protection against more serious damage or excessive warranty claims to the brand..

Just my $0.02...

 

[highfigh]

To add to the above, not only are receivers designed to vent upwards through the system very specifically, Onkyos have a tendency to run warm.

Finally, you may NOT enclose your receiver! It's like stuffing you into a plastic bag. YOU will suffocate yourself if you do that, and doing it to a receiver will do the same thing. If you have a furniture builder who doesn't understand the first thing about the requirements for cooling A/V, then may I suggest that you are dealing with the wrong person. If you are doing the work yourself, then it's a good time to learn that A/V equipment requires ventilation.

When I worked residential, the absolute number one issue I saw in high-end installations was people that built cabinets for their gear and the cabinets were not properly vented. Their gear failed within 30 days over and over and over. Then THEY complained.

Personally, I don't think cabinetmakers should be allowed to build cabinets for AV equipment until they have taken a course specifically for that kind of gear. I just worked on a system that was so narrow that I can only slide one finger past the side of a receiver and only on one side. If I need to pull it out, I'm SOL. I have also worked on systems where they asked how deep the equipment is and they made the cabinet that deep, no deeper. I'm working on another installation and I actually got to discuss what I needed with the cabinetmaker. He asked if I wanted him to route some 3/8" slots in the shelves. I wept.

 

[BMXTRIX]

Personally, I don't think cabinetmakers should be allowed to build cabinets for AV equipment until they have taken a course specifically for that kind of gear. I just worked on a system that was so narrow that I can only slide one finger past the side of a receiver and only on one side. If I need to pull it out, I'm SOL. I have also worked on systems where they asked how deep the equipment is and they made the cabinet that deep, no deeper. I'm working on another installation and I actually got to discuss what I needed with the cabinetmaker. He asked if I wanted him to route some 3/8" slots in the shelves. I wept.

I've been pretty fortunate working for a commercial company. I had NOTHING but the type of issues you listed when I did residential, but then I got into commercial and now I actually have to sign off on all the furniture before it can be built. I don't tell them how to build it, but I get to tell them how NOT to build it. So, things which are nice are credenzas with nice wheels so the entire system can roll away from a wall. Or adding a few inches to the top shelf (working surface) of an operators console so it touches the wall, but then kick it away from the wall so plugs and such don't push the entire unit away from the wall. It's nice. Still, I get my headaches, and I just deal with them now. I tell people what's up and put their gear in anyway. No chance of a manufacturer honoring a warranty on that stuff.

 

[BMXTRIX]

Do receivers/amps have any 'thermal protection'? Like shut down automatically in certain scenarios?
Is this possible? If not, why?

Fortunately, the answer is yes.

But, a piece of gear which shuts down over and over due to overheating is not exactly what is going to last for years and years. Imagine if your car shut down because it overheated... over, and over, and over. Eventually it is just going to stop turning on. Same with electronics. They may shut down at a certain temperature, but that temperature is most likely already doing damage.

 

[j_garcia]

Saving space but coming up with a design that really doesn't work for anything isn't really a *good* design. Maybe what you need is a remote rack, possibly in a closet or something, which means you are no longer limited by the size of the gear. Or, have a small section that juts out far enough where the gear will go.

 

[eddie459]

Thanks everyone for the great inputs. Interesting that no one commented on the component actually standing vertically. However that tells me that keeping it cool should be my main concern. I think I will try to put a stand on the side and not get too cute with space saving.

With the big push to get things as thin as possible like TVs, and speakers I am wondering why receiver manufacturers have not made components that stand vertically to save space and design them to keep cool in that upright position.
I would be a buyer. Imagine what cool things could be put on that large surface area. A family of components would be needed so that all of them are vertical.
Just thinking out loud.

 

[highfigh]

Interesting that no one commented on the component actually standing vertically. However that tells me that keeping it cool should be my main concern. I think I will try to put a stand on the side and not get too cute with space saving.

What do you mean? We ALL said something about standing it on its side- don't do it. The heat sinks are oriented in a way that allows the out[ut devices to cool effectively when the piece is sitting on its feet. This also requires having some air flowing up and through the bottom and that's one reason some feet are taller than others. It also means that some space is needed above the top of the unit. If the bottom of a piece of equipment is pancaked on the shelf, it means that piece doesn't need much cooling.

Even if you put a fan on it, the heat is trying to rise across the cooling fins and not between and through them. This means the lower fins won't dissipate as much heat as the upper ones and the output devices near that area won't run as cool as they should.

Electronic devices don't need to be "cool", necessarily. They need to be within their optimum temperature range to perform efficiently. If an output transistor, chip or pack gets too hot, it may experience "thermal runaway", which means the voltage output ramps up in a way that it can damage whatever is after the device, it can also be self-destructive. MOS-FETs self-govern when this happens and that's one of the reasons they have been used as extensively in power supplies and power amps.

 

[Rickster71]

Thanks everyone for the great inputs. Interesting that no one commented on the component actually standing vertically. However that tells me that keeping it cool should be my main concern. I think I will try to put a stand on the side and not get too cute with space saving.

With the big push to get things as thin as possible like TVs, and speakers I am wondering why receiver manufacturers have not made components that stand vertically to save space and design them to keep cool in that upright position.
I would be a buyer. Imagine what cool things could be put on that large surface area. A family of components would be needed so that all of them are vertical.
Just thinking out loud.

I see that because you didn't get the answer you wanted to hear, you've missed their point entirely.
Instead of you wanting to change a format and common standard; just have the cabinet built to accommodate that standard and the laws of physics.

 

[BMXTRIX]

Thanks everyone for the great inputs. Interesting that no one commented on the component actually standing vertically. However that tells me that keeping it cool should be my main concern. I think I will try to put a stand on the side and not get too cute with space saving.

The first post answered the question, and I agreed with that first post, beyond that, it was important that you also focus on the importance of properly ventilating the receiver when you do have it put in place, as poor ventilation is a far more serious newbie mistake.

That is: Q: "Can I put my receiver vertically?" - A: No.
Okay, well then I'll just tuck it into this enclosed area with no ventilation instead.

WAIT! You can't do THAT either!

Very important that both items are met so that you get years of use from your system without any problems.

With the big push to get things as thin as possible like TVs, and speakers I am wondering why receiver manufacturers have not made components that stand vertically to save space and design them to keep cool in that upright position.
I would be a buyer. Imagine what cool things could be put on that large surface area. A family of components would be needed so that all of them are vertical.
Just thinking out loud.

There's actually practical reasons for this. Mostly it deals with the fact that heat rises. So, a component that is laid flat, over a large area, cools more effectively than a product which is put sideways. The heat would rise up through the other components and overheat towards the top.

There is no real space saving from any design, as a 18x18x7 inch receiver is still that size no matter how you put it. But, while it WOULD be nice if components were more flexible with their orientation, since they are not, the option is to find a place to put them where they aren't intrusive in your space.

For example, my A/V receivers (more than one) are in my basement storage area. They are well ventilated, and the wiring goes from where they are, up to my family room and to the rec room. They are controlled with a very reliable RF remote control system. My wife never sees the receiver, and I get the benefit of the nice surround sound system.

 

[highfigh]

Part of the reason this equipment isn't made to stand on its side is that there's not enough demand for it. Also, standard equipment racks are designed to use wide, horizontal equipment.

Standing it on its side vs putting it in an enclosed space with no air flow is like someone wearing a snowmobile suit on a hot day to find out if there's a difference when they stand or lay down. There's not.