Splitting PRE-AMP OUTS.

KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I'm just wondering now if my RX-Z9 would be better quality then my MX-1 .
From the standpoint of making a difference, "it doesn't matter". Both are good amps and neither is being pushed near their limits with your Klipsch's. Reviewers like to make a big deal out of the sound of amplifiers, but the difference between two quality amps simply is not audible unless you are driving them near or beyond their limits.
I once set up to compare my Marantz sr6001 vs another Marantz SR6001 with an Emotiva XPA-2 (300WPC RMS into 8 ohms or 500WPC RMS into 4 ohms) external amplifier feeding two pairs of identical speakers. I was shocked to find the AVR by itself sounded better than the AVR/amp combo. So shocked I did more testing. What I determined was the pair of speakers 10" to the left of the identical pair sounded better regardless of the amplification. I swapped the speaker pairs, but it was still the location 10" to the left (not the speakers) that mattered!

Guys who write professional reviews are worried about keeping their job:
1) If they piss off advertisers they will lose income.
2) If they say they did not hear a significant difference or that they "kind of thought they might have" heard a difference (which I would consider honest statements, based on my personal experience), it makes for some pretty weak writing and readerships would drop off. They try to keep it exciting and spur on enthusiasm by talking about exciting "night and day" differences.

In the pursuit of sound quality, you get traction concerning yourself with speakers, your room (including speaker and listener positioning), and quality of the source recording (but you really can't do much about that).

The only time amplification matters is if you are pushing the limits.

Oh yeah, and tube amps are a completely different story...
 
JOHN FICKEL

JOHN FICKEL

Senior Audioholic
John,

To summarize what has been said in one sentence:
There is no concern for your electronics; however, running multiple speakers in the same room with the same signals significantly degrades sound quality.

The additional info you are offering does not change the above statement, and nobody likes to get in an endless cycle of repeating themselves. Slippery knows his stuff and gave you your answer. You can second guess all you want, but we are just reading and thinking "you can lead a horse to water..." If you don't want to drink, don't! But don't expect us to keep pushing your nose into the water!

The best argument for running multi speakers (with same signal) is for a large room where you want to turn the volume down very low (low background music) so the sound has some fullness without having it loud near the mains. It is not a bad idea for a quiet party where you want easy conversation, but still want music in the background. The signal is not loud enough, or is too blocked by bodies, such that the interference between speakers is not an issue.
You should definitely get rid of the extra speakers if you want to listen without loss of sound quality.

I should also confess to running multi-channel stereo in my living room. The room is central to my home and while I constantly pass through it, unless I am listening to music or watching TV, I never actually spend time in there. I find running multi-channel broadcasts the sound better throughout my home (into the adjoining rooms, like my office or the kitchen). It is also low-fi, but I haven't yet set up the zones to have good sound in my main rooms. However, when I actually sit in the Living Room, I switch back to Stereo for music or 5.2 for HT because it sounds better. Listen, you will hear.
I agree and that's how I use my 4 mains. when I'm walking around the house or in other rooms . Once in a while do I use all four
 
JOHN FICKEL

JOHN FICKEL

Senior Audioholic
From the standpoint of making a difference, "it doesn't matter". Both are good amps and neither is being pushed near their limits with your Klipsch's. Reviewers like to make a big deal out of the sound of amplifiers, but the difference between two quality amps simply is not audible unless you are driving them near or beyond their limits.
I once set up to compare my Marantz sr6001 vs another Marantz SR6001 with an Emotiva XPA-2 (300WPC RMS into 8 ohms or 500WPC RMS into 4 ohms) external amplifier feeding two pairs of identical speakers. I was shocked to find the AVR by itself sounded better than the AVR/amp combo. So shocked I did more testing. What I determined was the pair of speakers 10" to the left of the identical pair sounded better regardless of the amplification. I swapped the speaker pairs, but it was still the location 10" to the left (not the speakers) that mattered!

Guys who write professional reviews are worried about keeping their job:
1) If they piss off advertisers they will lose income.
2) If they say they did not hear a significant difference or that they "kind of thought they might have" heard a difference (which I would consider honest statements, based on my personal experience), it makes for some pretty weak writing and readerships would drop off. They try to keep it exciting and spur on enthusiasm by talking about exciting "night and day" differences.

In the pursuit of sound quality, you get traction concerning yourself with speakers, your room (including speaker and listener positioning), and quality of the source recording (but you really can't do much about that).

The only time amplification matters is if you are pushing the limits.

Oh yeah, and tube amps are a completely different story...
Thank you Kew. I think it makes more sense to put the MX-1 in another room . And run the second pair off the Z9. The Z9 is great too , and like you said sonically won't be able to tell the difference . I don't even run my mains full range I have my RF-7 's crossed at 80hz Iv tried 60 and just prefer 80hz from the subs. Then I wouldn't have to use Y splitters in the back of the Z9 , I can't thank you guys enough I've learned a lot today , I just keep driving myself crazy over stuff Lol. I LOVE to learn. Iv been messing with stuff for about 20 years myself.
so glad I found this site because it's hard to find people who know what they're talking about on this stuff. You guys are great.


to split the two lamps
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Just think about this logically for a minute.

Voltage is a measurement of POTENTIAL energy. You can never take a voltage measurement at a single point, voltage measures the difference in potential energy between 2 points.
I am sure you meant potential difference, not "energy", typo right:)?
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
I am sure you meant potential difference, not "energy", typo right:)?
Haha, not typo, but typing too fast.

Well, it is a measure of potential energy if you assume that it is a measure of potential above ground. ;)


Yes, I mistakenly contradicted myself, but obviously voltage is always a measurement of the DIFFERENCE between 2 potentials.
 
JOHN FICKEL

JOHN FICKEL

Senior Audioholic
Well last night I got rid of the splitters and just went directly into the MCintosh amp, and the (hum) in my back subwoofer is completely gone ! WEIRD I put the MX-1 on my Cerwin-Vega XLS-215. . It may be me But the Mcintosh seems louder now but that's impossible right ? I figured the Z9 at 170 and that's. Probably conservative from Yamaha , plus I'm using bass management so my mains are crossed over at 80hz. So it should be a relatively easy workload for the Z9
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Haha, not typo, but typing too fast.

Well, it is a measure of potential energy if you assume that it is a measure of potential above ground. ;)


Yes, I mistakenly contradicted myself, but obviously voltage is always a measurement of the DIFFERENCE between 2 potentials.
You made an interesting point. People tend to more readily relate to mechanical technical terms but not electrical as it is more abstract. Back to the OP's question, it is just too bad he got those seemingly incorrect answers from the OEMs.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
It may be me But the Mcintosh seems louder now but that's impossible right ? I figured the Z9 at 170 and that's. Probably conservative from Yamaha , plus I'm using bass management so my mains are crossed over at 80hz. So it should be a relatively easy workload for the Z9
The MC252 needs 1.6V unbalanced to get 250W output so the gain is probably around 29 dB. The Z9 is an AVR so it is hard to know what the internal amp's gain is. The fact that the Mc "seems" louder to you does not prove anything because there are several factors. The way you are running two separate pairs of speakers it really does not matter if one pair sounds louder right? If you do want to balance them you can do it easily.

All I can tell you is that the Z9 should have enough preout voltage to drive your MX-1 and/or MC252 to their rated output.
 
JOHN FICKEL

JOHN FICKEL

Senior Audioholic
Thank you Peng, it was probably dumb for me to even worry about driving both amps off the same preouts . When I had both amps running and all 4 speakers on they seemed pretty equal in volume . Never had a prob there. , however now the Mcintosh is running alone and I'm not splitting . The Mcintosh just seems more ballz. Like you just said there's way too know, to many variables to know for sure
 
JOHN FICKEL

JOHN FICKEL

Senior Audioholic
I have not hooked the other pair to the Z9 yet. And like you said I don't think I'll be able to tell the difference sonically between the two MX-1 or the Z9. Given I'm not even running full range, or driving either amp to their limits ..
 
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slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
You made an interesting point. People tend to more readily relate to mechanical technical terms but not electrical as it is more abstract. Back to the OP's question, it is just too bad he got those seemingly incorrect answers from the OEMs.
Yes, absolutely agree!!!

The classic analogy for voltage would be (water) pressure, and the analogy for current is (water) flow.

However, one of my profs in my chemistry classes had the best analogy for Voltage (Electronic Potential) that I have ever heard, it makes perfect sense. Think of voltage as an "electron hill" in a thermodynamic sense. The higher the voltage, the higher the "electron hill" and the more potential energy available to do work.
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
Can you split the preamp outputs on the back of the receiver ? I have a Yamaha RX -Z9 and I am splitting the preamp outputs to a Yamaha MX-1, and a Mcintosh MC-252. To drive two pair of mains. So I'm splitting the MAIN pre amp outs. Or should I just drive one pair of speakers on the Z9 and the other pair on the Mac 252 Is it a bad idea to split the preamp outs? Thank you
Frankly I'm a bit confused. Your Z9 has the capability you want w/o "splitting" a single pair of pre-outs.

Option #1: One pair of speakers thru amp 1 for Front L/R, and one pair Zone 2 thru amp 2 if you want them in a separate room or don't want to use the second speakers for TV/Movies. Main Zone and Zone 2 to use all 4 speakers in stereo together.

Option #2: One pair of speakers thru amp 1 for Front L/R, one pair thru amp 2 for Surround L/R. All Channel Stereo to "split" all 4 speakers in stereo.

What am I missing?
 
JOHN FICKEL

JOHN FICKEL

Senior Audioholic
My question was would it be OK to split the main preamp outs to feed two separate, two channel solid-state power amplifiers. I do not care anything about zone two and I'm not trying to do anything with zone 2. This is all in my main theater room. I have two pair of Klipsch RF-7ii's, when I worked at a retail store selling Mcintosh, I was able to buy a Mcintosh MC2 52. I also have a Yamaha MX –1 . So when I put my question on this site I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't going to hurt my preamp RX-Z9 , that it was OK to run two separate power amps Off the main pre-outs . PENG, and Slippery both said I'd have no problem. And I thank them both as this got into a pretty lengthy conversation. Yamaha and Mcintosh both told me Not to split the preamp outs , and that it would split the voltage to both amps. Because of this site I found out that that was not true because I'm running both amps in parallel only the current to the amps would get split and they both said that it's not going to hurt the amps or degrade the quality of the amps . However I have decided that my Yamaha RX Z9 is a phenomenal amplifier itself, and then I could clean up the back of my audio system by not having to use Y splitters and I could use the MX-1 in another room . Like PENG SAID sonically between the MX-1 and the Z9 I would not be able to tell the difference, neither amplifier is being pushed to the limits . So basically my Mcintosh MC252 is running a pair of RF-7's and my Z9 will be running the other pair in the same room side by side.
 
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JOHN FICKEL

JOHN FICKEL

Senior Audioholic
Also I want thank KEW . Herbu. I'd be interested to hear what you had to say as well Thank you
 
JOHN FICKEL

JOHN FICKEL

Senior Audioholic
So my Z9 is running my center, my surrounds and front effect speakers. And now one pair of RF-7ii., and These RF-7's would only be used on an occasion when I want to run all four at the same time 99% of the time I use the pair hooked up to the Mcintosh
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
PENG, and Slippery both said I'd have no problem. And I thank them both as this got into a pretty lengthy conversation. Yamaha and Mcintosh both told me Not to split the preamp outs , and that it would split the voltage to both amps.
It wasn't easy to get the input impedance spec of the MC 252 but I finally found it. It appears to be only 10K ohms. In that case, I would not recommend using the Z9's pre outs to drive both the MX-1 and Z9 at the same time. The MX-1's input impedance appeared to be 20K ohms and that is more in line with what I expected. The Z9 should have no issue running two MX-1, but the MC 252 is a different story.

One more thing I would like to clarify, as mentioned before when you connect two power amps to the pre outs of the Z9, the voltage does NOT get cut to half automatically. It will remain unaffected until it gets overloaded. In your case, the MC252 has relatively low input impedance so it is conceivable that the Z9 could get overloaded to the point it could not sustain the maximum unclipped/undistorted voltage needed to produce the rated voltage for the power amps. That is only the case if the pre outs are used to feed both amps simultaneously. There should be no issue if only the MC252 is connected.

The RF7ii has very high sensitivity, so in practice it will still be safe even if you connect both amps to the Z9, because it is highly unlikely that you need to push the amps to anywhere near their rated capacity.
 
JOHN FICKEL

JOHN FICKEL

Senior Audioholic
It wasn't easy to get the input impedance spec of the MC 252 but I finally found it. It appears to be only 10K ohms. In that case, I would not recommend using the Z9's pre outs to drive both the MX-1 and Z9 at the same time. The MX-1's input impedance appeared to be 20K ohms and that is more in line with what I expected. The Z9 should have no issue running two MX-1, but the MC 252 is a different story.

One more thing I would like to clarify, as mentioned before when you connect two power amps to the pre outs of the Z9, the voltage does NOT get cut to half automatically. It will remain unaffected until it gets overloaded. In your case, the MC252 has relatively low input impedance so it is conceivable that the Z9 could get overloaded to the point it could not sustain the maximum unclipped/undistorted voltage needed to produce the rated voltage for the power amps. That is only the case if the pre outs are used to feed both amps simultaneously. There should be no issue if only the MC252 is connected.

The RF7ii has very high sensitivity, so in practice it will still be safe even if you connect both amps to the Z9, because it is highly unlikely that you need to push the amps to anywhere near their rated capacity.
Thank you so much for going above and beyond. I totally trust and believe you. Can u please explain how having a low input impedance would be harder to drive ? But having two amps with 20k ohm would be ok? Just trying to learn.
 
JOHN FICKEL

JOHN FICKEL

Senior Audioholic
I'm now only using the Mcintosh off the preouts and the Z9 to drive the other pair
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thank you so much for going above and beyond. I totally trust and believe you. Can u please explain how having a low input impedance would be harder to drive ? But having two amps with 20k ohm would be ok? Just trying to learn.
If you connect two 20K ohm loads, the pre outs voltage source will have to feed the same current of V/20K to each load and that is equivalent to V/10K. That is, to the preamp, two 20K ohms load is equivalent to one 10K load. It is more difficult for an amplifier to drive a lower impedance load because at any given output voltage, low impedance means higher load current demand.

A 20K (MX-1) and 10K (MC252) load in parallel is equivalent to a 6.67K load. The RX-Z9 is rated 1V/0.5K, so even with the Z9 and MX-1 both connected, the equivalent impedance is still high enough for the Z9. I am guessing that you still won't run into any issue unless you really drive the amps to their limits and listening to contents with very high peaks. It really is a moot point in practical sense but in theory, not splitting the signal is always better.:D
 
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