Spend less on speakers, more on acoustic treatment?

[tentaguasu]

Hello all,

Is it fair to say that correct acoustic treatment is vastly underrated by most people? I'm working on my dedicated home theater room, and recently went on a "parade of homes" tour and was looking for theater ideas.

The thaters I saw were nice, and professionally designed, but the sound was just OK. The speakers used were theoretically very good.

However, I couldn't see any evident acoustic treatment. It could be that it was fantastically well hidden, but I don't think so.

It got me thinking about my own design and thinking about whether I should stop obsessing about speakers and start obsessing about AT.

Put another way, given a limited budget, might I be able to achieve pretty darned good results by focusing my efforts on A.T.? Granted, the speakers are only as good as they are good (A.T. won't improve them) but I'm guessing that in many, many cases what people actually have running at home (and what I saw in those theaters) is great equipment wasted in a bad space...

thoughts?

 

[j_garcia]

IMO, no, I would still focus on the speakers since they determine the sound of your system. Add treatments after, unless you are trying to do the whole thing in one shot.

 

[son-yah-tive]

IMO, no, I would still focus on the speakers since they determine the sound of your system. Add treatments after, unless you are trying to do the whole thing in one shot.

I'd agree. You can always change room accoustics, but you can't beat a good set of speakers that set the tone for the room first.

 

[AJinFLA]

Is it fair to say that correct acoustic treatment is vastly underrated by most people?

No. Vastly overrated. The room is rarely, if ever the problem. The source is. That is what needs "treatment".

I couldn't see any evident acoustic treatment....but the sound was just OK.

That would call into question the very goodness of the loudspeaker theory.

The speakers used were theoretically very good.

Based on what theory?
The one where the speaker is so good, the room needs to be stuffed with gauze and bandaids for proper sound?

 

[tentaguasu]

Interesting - sounds like you are all basically saying that acoustical treatment is overrated, whereas others have said its vastly underrated.

I'm clueless, but interesting that there is such a divergence of opinion.

Let me put it this way - is acoustical treatment necessary for good sound in a fairly small room, or one of those "golden ear" things that certain people do in pursuit of absolute perfection?

 

[AJinFLA]

Interesting - sounds like you are all basically saying that acoustical treatment is overrated, whereas others have said its vastly underrated.

I don't sell room treatments. My opinion might be subject to change if I did.

I'm clueless, but interesting that there is such a divergence of opinion.

There is anything but consensus in audiophilia. There tends to be much greater (but not total) consensus among audio perception science researchers.

Let me put it this way - is acoustical treatment necessary for good sound in a fairly small room, or one of those "golden ear" things that certain people do in pursuit of absolute perfection?

Define "fairly small" room in feet (HxWxD). How is it furnished/decor? Where are the speakers to be placed (in feet)? What type of speakers?

 

[WmAx]

Interesting - sounds like you are all basically saying that acoustical treatment is overrated, whereas others have said its vastly underrated.

I'm clueless, but interesting that there is such a divergence of opinion.

Let me put it this way - is acoustical treatment necessary for good sound in a fairly small room, or one of those "golden ear" things that certain people do in pursuit of absolute perfection?

Really, this depends on specific circumstances.

If you happen to have a room that is populated by furniture, etc. that provides a reasonable level of diffusion and/or absorption, then a speaker with even off axis response may sound good in this room. If however, you have a room that has virtually nothing in it other than a chair or couch and a table - and has serious flutter echos, etc.; then treatments would be needed to get that room to sound good even with the speaker that has a good even off axis response characteristic, at least for recordings that have reverberation/delay times lower than the delay / reverb times produced from the room itself. Recordings with delay/reverb times exceeding the room's, will tend to mask the room's own properties in this regard. But many recordings, especially studio recordings, are going to have relative short delay/reverb times much of the time. Also, if you place a speaker in a position that yields a short delay(less than about 4-5ms min.), high intensity reflection, you may need to use specific localized treatments to correct this non optimal placement effect. This would usually only be an issue placing a speaker directly next to side wall, or placing a speaker that has rear-radiation, very close to a rear wall.

In special cases, room treatment can be used to optimize a room for specific acoustic objectives that would otherwise not be possible; and only specific treatments may bring about these objectives - but this is really not relevant to the average situation - I just thought I would mention this as a disclaimer.

Additionally, LF response is usually problematic. Treatments designed specifically to target LF response problems can have a very favorable effect - unfortunately you need a relatively large number of them to have a substantial effect on LF response. You can also use a parametric EQ to help improve LF room characteristics; at least in specific seated position(s).

-Chris

 

[tentaguasu]

Define "fairly small" room in feet (HxWxD). How is it furnished/decor? Where are the speakers to be placed (in feet)? What type of speakers?

15x18x8 which I guess is either big or small depending on your perspective.

It's not filled out yet so decor is flexible, but it will be a dedicated home theater room. Couches, carpet. Speaker type and placement is undecided as yet.

I guess my concern is that - even though I love good sound - I'm well aware that there are many people who spend tons of money chasing a golden goose that is always just over the horizon. That happens in any "hobbyist" topic - sound, computers, photography, etc. etc. etc.

Separating the "this is really critical to get good performance" from the "this is great if you want to dedicate your life and wallet to perfection but irrelevant to most of us."

Take digital photography. People go nuts trying to get more megapixels.

Pointless, for most people. Money would be much better spent on (1) a photography class (2) a camera with a good lens.

But I know that because I know a fair amout about photography - I have a hard time making that same judgment in this field.

 

[mtrycrafts]

15x18x8 which I guess is either big or small depending on your perspective.

It's not filled out yet so decor is flexible, but it will be a dedicated home theater room. Couches, carpet. Speaker type and placement is undecided as yet.

I guess my concern is that - even though I love good sound - I'm well aware that there are many people who spend tons of money chasing a golden goose that is always just over the horizon. That happens in any "hobbyist" topic - sound, computers, photography, etc. etc. etc.

Separating the "this is really critical to get good performance" from the "this is great if you want to dedicate your life and wallet to perfection but irrelevant to most of us."

Take digital photography. People go nuts trying to get more megapixels.

Pointless, for most people. Money would be much better spent on (1) a photography class (2) a camera with a good lens.

But I know that because I know a fair amout about photography - I have a hard time making that same judgment in this field.

You may want to go slow and invest in this book:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_10?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=floyd+toole+sound+reproduction&sprefix=floyd+tool

see what he has to say on the subject. He has lots of research under his belt his whole life.

 

[JerryLove]

I'm going to go against the grain and say that room acoustics can be very signifigant.

Without even bothering to consider the technical merits: I'll remember that my ears always hurt a Chilies, that when my parents replaced their carpet with hard flooring I started getting headaches when I visit, and that (for some reason) every recording studio, movie theater, and concert hall I can think of, all the way back to the greek ampitheaters, invested effort in controlling sound though the design of the space.

I do agree that it's hard to budget for in advance, and I do agree that it's easier to add to later, but I don't agree it's not something to consider.

 

[highfigh]

No. Vastly overrated. The room is rarely, if ever the problem. The source is. That is what needs "treatment".


That would call into question the very goodness of the loudspeaker theory.


Based on what theory?
The one where the speaker is so good, the room needs to be stuffed with gauze and bandaids for proper sound?

That first response is just plain wrong. The room is almost always the biggest problem and sources sound similar enough that they're basically interchangeable. The room reflects sound and you can guarantee that the refelctions will be A) excessive, B) they'll last too long and C) will make good speakers sound bad.

Do some research on this- equalizers are made to counteract the bad acoustics, not to make speakers do what they can't normally in a good room. If you can clap your hands and hear repeated echos, no speaker will sound great in that room.

 

[AJinFLA]

15x18x8 which I guess is either big or small depending on your perspective.

Neither. Seems about average. 18' width would allow the LR speakers to be well away from the sidewalls, usually the most problematic for the radiation of typical cone 'n dome speakers that the market is awash with.

It's not filled out yet so decor is flexible, but it will be a dedicated home theater room. Couches, carpet.

IOW, the type of decor that would make "treatments" completely unnecessary, if the acoustic sources (speakers) are competently designed...and placed.

Speaker type and placement is undecided as yet.

That makes all the difference in the world.

Separating the "this is really critical to get good performance" from the "this is great if you want to dedicate your life and wallet to perfection but irrelevant to most of us."

I don't see the need to separate. Good acoustic performance (what sounds "good" to you is a different issue) is as simple and straightforward as the scientific method. Understanding the science and what matters is the key, limiting early reflections time/intensity, spatial distribution at LF for averaging, etc, etc, etc.
Doing so allows you to spend less, get more...and end up with superior realism of sound than those too uneducated to not stuff their rooms full of realism killing gauze and bandaids....because this is what their knowledge limits them to.

cheers,

AJ

 

[AJinFLA]

That first response is just plain wrong. The room is almost always the biggest problem

From you knowledge of acoustics, obviously.

...and sources sound similar enough that they're basically interchangeable.

What "sources"? If the "sources" have different polar patterns, they will neither be "interchangeable", nor "sound similar". Simple, basic physics.

The room reflects sound and you can guarantee that the refelctions will be A) excessive, B) they'll last too long and C) will make good speakers sound bad.

What makes the "guaranteed" reflections A) "excessive"? "Excessive" how?
B)"Too long", what is too long exactly in time units??...and how do you "guarantee" it in any room??
C) What is a "Good" speaker? "Good" defined by what objective unit(s) of measure?

Do some research on this-

equalizers are made to counteract the bad acoustics, not to make speakers do what they can't normally in a good room.

You just stated that "bad acoustics" is a result of excessive, too long (time) reflections. How does equalization (amplitude) "counteract" this?

If you can clap your hands and hear repeated echos, no speaker will sound great in that room.

And what type of polar source is a handclap representative of exactly? What type of acoustic source has that type of directivity?

Take your time with the answers. Make sure they are technically objective responses, not "it sounds so, I said so" type subjective. TIA.

cheers,

AJ

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My knowledge in Audio Science is extremely small, but in my personally experience, the placement of the speakers make lot more difference than the room acoustics itself. You need a room with adequate space for your speakers.

So I also vote for the actual speakers as most important. I also think room acoustics is overrated, but adequate room size is important for proper placement.

 

[Alex2507]

Is it fair to say that correct acoustic treatment is vastly underrated by most people?

No. Vastly overrated. The room is rarely, if ever the problem.

I disagree. Most people don't have treatments so treatments can't be overrated.

When I play the Rives test tones in my room I can actually hear where a peak is coming from in a few instances. When I take my SPL meter to that spot the decibels go up. That is not the speaker but the room. Now I may be a little wacky with this stuff but I'm not full bore crazy nor do I have the budget and the WAF to go bonkers with treatments ... nor do I have the techno wizardry and patience to measure the effects of every different pillow position type of thing.

It is commonly accepted here at AH that sound control in a room (via treatments) is a good thing. I'm sure the admin's have it in their homes. The two high end listening rooms that I visited had it. Movie theaters have it. Gymnasiums even have it. The Harman test room has it. Chris has it. I have it. Scholling has it. Nibhaz has it.

TLS doesn't have it.
But he designed his room.

Edit: ... bu goodt speakers first ... and a Gramma.

 

[AJinFLA]

I disagree. Most people don't have treatments so treatments can't be overrated.

Illogical. Unless you can provide specific data that quantity of people is somehow correlated to the rating of importance for treatments. The relation?

When I play the Rives test tones in my room I can actually hear where a peak is coming from in a few instances. When I take my SPL meter to that spot the decibels go up. That is not the speaker but the room.

Really? Ok, now repeat the test, without the speaker (acoustic source) and tell me what you hear and measure. Remember, the room itself will be otherwise completely unchanged. Tell me what "problem" with the room you find.

cheers,

AJ

 

[Alex2507]

Illogical. Unless you can provide specific data that quantity of people is somehow correlated to the rating of importance for treatments. The relation?

The OP asked if treatments were underrated by most people. I have specifically been in 2 home in my whole life that had them. That means that after collecting a lifetime of data my conclusion is that most people don't have a high regard for treatments ... they are underrated by most people. Most people don't regard them highly? This seems so logical to me.

Do you use surge suppression?

Really? Ok, now repeat the test, without the speaker (acoustic source) and tell me what you hear and measure. Remember, the room itself will be otherwise completely unchanged. Tell me what "problem" with the room you find.

Now that's illogical. Do you think I am actually going to turn my speakers off and then take measurements? I'm sure you know that if I wanted to know the FR of the speaker I would measure it in an anechoic chamber but if I wanted to know the frequency of a room mode in my listening position I would measure the FR in my room with the speaker playing a test tone.

Do you own an HD DVD player?

 

[AJinFLA]

The OP asked if treatments were underrated by most people. I have specifically been in 2 home in my whole life that had them. That means that after collecting a lifetime of data my conclusion is that most people don't have a high regard for treatments ... they are underrated by most people. Most people don't regard them highly? This seems so logical to me.

Do you use surge suppression?

Your sample size is way too small for statistical relevance, Sorry .
Yes, I use mains protection.

Now that's illogical. Do you think I am actually going to turn my speakers off and then take measurements?

Bad monkey, you're not playing along . What would have changed with the "bad" room by doing so? Ok let's skip that step.
Instead, remove your speakers and replace them with a different type of acoustic sources, 1st order gradients (your choice of directional characteristic, cardioid or dipole). Place them in the exact same locations of your current speakers. Change nothing about the "bad" room. Redo your tests. Tell us what you hear/measure in your otherwise completely unchanged "bad" room. Still think it's the room ?

I'm sure you know that if I wanted to know the FR of the speaker I would measure it in an anechoic chamber but if I wanted to know the frequency of a room mode in my listening position I would measure the FR in my room with the speaker playing a test tone.

Do you own an HD DVD player?

No, you would simply be measuring the summed interaction of your spatially positioned sources (speakers) and room....at that particular mic (measurement) spatial position.

No HD DVD player.

cheers,

AJ

 

[Alex2507]

I've been in hundreds if not thousands of homes in my life time and have personally met tens of thousands of people. How is that too small a sample?

I'm not about to start swapping speakers around. I'm too lazy to play test tones out of the ones I have in place never mind using another monopole, bipole or dipole. I'm not even going to use the quotes any further because this isn't me being deposed. You're trying to show me something but that's not going to be so easy. Ignorance of this magnitude is hard won and I ain't giving it up without a fight. As a matter of fact I can see that I need help bringing you around so I'm calling out for it.

Somebody help me with this guy !!!

Anyway I think one frequency in question was around 315(?) +/- whatever ... close enough. It beams off a small piece of side wall about 6' from my right. My thought is that any other reasonably similar/accurate speaker would produce the same result. My take is that an absorber or possibly a diffuser would help me reduce that peak in my listening position.

I think we all know not to absorb first reflection points needlessly. I believe I read somewhere that so called broadband absorbers act more like diffusers in small rooms at anything other than right angles to the speakers so they actually end up enhancing the listening experience ... but this is me talking above my pay grade. This is why I called for ...

HELP !!!

Where is bpape when you need him?

I'm so confused now that I need somebody to get over here to straighten both of us out.

How about a Gramma or SubDude? You use anything like that?

Thanks for playing along.

 

[MatthewB.]

I am one who thinks acoustical treatments can make all the difference (and this coming from a guy who has none) Two years ago I flew to a well respected members GTG over at Sound and Vision (IG) anyway his main HT room was specially built to exacting standards for sound reproduction and he hand built his speakers using active EQ's on every speaker and his room was pure perfection for sound reproduction. The room itself was not much bigger than a regular bedroom, 7 handmade speakers dual infinate baffle subs (in different back corners of the room) and we tested a variety of speakers throughout the long weekend. First in his regular listening studio room which is treated but just for bass. We then would go into his treated room and listen to the same speakers and oh my gosh the difference was incredible.

We tested out about 10 different speakers and some that people rated very high in one room, not so much in the other. The only ones that sounded great in both were the Dynaudio Confidence bookshelf speakers (at 7,000 pair) and the Paradigm Studio 20's ver. 2

I can honestly say that proper room acoustics made the biggest difference on this old mans ears and I have been an audiophile for a long time. In fact next weekend I am flying out to Delaware (from AZ) to attend another members GTG and his system is nothing short of the best HT room I have ever been in. When I was there in October and listened to his full surround high end Dynaudio system (Contour mains and Center and Focus surrounds) SVS PB13 Ultra sub I was jaw dropped with how great it sounded and this was before he had the acoustical treatment fully installed (he had some but not all of it in yet) so I am highly looking forward to hearing the difference.

I think acoutic treatment can help "tame" any room and with proper calibration and EQ can do so much to help out any speaker sound their best.