Speakers Q&A

[TheWarrior]

A preout is simply processed information, converted to an analog signal, that is ready for amplification.

Processing a digital signal, and converting it to analog are two different steps in the process, each performed by a different piece of hardware. Your Preamp/Receiver has a built in processor encoded for whatever multi channel format you are using. After that 'processing', the signal is converted to analog so that it can be amplified.

Before you ask, Class D does not mean 'digital'. So no, you cannot get around the need for a quality DAC!

 

[killdozzer]

Before you ask, Class D does not mean 'digital'. So no, you cannot get around the need for a quality DAC!

Unnecessarily condescending. I don't know much, but I am beyond that.

There was an actual reason I was asking this. I can't have you all on call waiting while going from shop to shop. I have to learn to fight off those salesmen with less ethics. If I see a term pre-out on an amp, should I conclude it definitely has bass management or definitely doesn't? That's what I need to know. But it seems you can have it both ways out there. And the words 'processed information' might mean simply what an preamp usually does with a signal. It doesn't have to mean it is converted in any way.

This is making things a little bit more difficult since you can't really disqualify any of the amps by searching the web in comfort of your home. Not all producers post every little detail on web (most do, but not all), so you have to take an actual manual and read it.

For example; NR1606 doesn't really say 'bass management' in specs on their site. When it comes to sub woofers they go on explaining how you can connect two instead of one and what are the advantages. But it does have Audyssey, so you have to go on and read (if you don't know, like I don't) does Audyssey include bass management. And so on. It is not all straightforward.

When it come to how many actual DA converter an intgr. amp has, I admit this was only out of curiosity. I had a feeling that if it's the one and only doing everything it must have some, I don't know, 'virtual channels'. One would convert data from your PC into analogue signal and the other would convert it all back to digital so it can process frequencies and separate them and then convert it all back to analogue to send it to amplification. (I hope the separation doesn't happen after the amplification as this would really blow my mind).

Thanks for the info!
killdozzer

 

[TheWarrior]

I was merely being thorough

 

[Ponzio]

If I see a term pre-out on an amp, should I conclude it definitely has bass management or definitely doesn't?

Yes ... most of the time. To make sure I would verify the bass management with the brands model number thru research on the internet, via the owners manual PDF's. If it's an AVR model I would say 99.5% of the time it has bass management. How flexible that bass management is questionable. The newer models allow more flexibility at which point the bass management kicks in (20 to 120Hz) vs. the older models which may only allow u to set it at 80Hz, the most popular setting.

 

[Swerd]

If I see a term pre-out on an amp, should I conclude it definitely has bass management or definitely doesn't?

If the item 1) is an Audio Video Receiver (AVR), 2) that contains built-in ability to processing the various Dolby Digital and DTS encoded soundtracks, and 3) if it has one or more pre-out jacks specifically labled subwoofer, the answer to your question is yes, it does have bass management. The Marantz NR1606 you mentioned, does indeed have bass management, even though it never says "bass management". See page 161 of this owner's manual http://us.marantz.com/DocumentMaster/US/NR1606U_ENG_WEB_UG_v00.pdf

I haven't seen every AVR that ever was, but I believe the bass management functions are built-in to the electronic chip(s) in an AVR that do the so-called digital processing. I'd be surprised to see an AVR that did not have this.

These Stereo Receivers (SR) or Integrated Amplifiers (IA) may have pre-amp output jacks, but they are not the same as the similar looking subwoofer jacks on AVRs. On SRs or IAs, the pre-amp output jacks deliver only full range audio to an external amplifier.

The SRs or IAs may have a Digital to Audio Converter (DAC) that allows it to play digital music from a CD or computer file, but most or all (?) of them do not have the other digital processing that AVRs have. A few have some limited bass management functions (example, the Outlaw RR2120, which is available only by internet direct order) that are done to analog audio signals, but none of them have the the flexibility and range of functions that most or all AVRs have.

 

[killdozzer]

These Stereo Receivers (SR) or Integrated Amplifiers (IA) may have pre-amp output jacks, but they are not the same as the similar looking subwoofer jacks on AVRs. On SRs or IAs, the pre-amp output jacks deliver only full range audio to an external amplifier.

grrrrhmphfuurf!!

Thank you once again. Seems I'll never be quite on my own two feet. Everything may look the same and still be essentially different. When I narrow my choice down to just a few I'll simply ask here. There's no way around this.

In the meantime I can confirm that what you all said here is probably true to EU market as well. If it's intgr. amp + DAC + bass management you want you need a receiver. If you persist on having a stereo amp you'll get less for more money and have just a few models to choose from.

Today I've turned a couple of knobs on some Yamaha's and Pioneer's, awful! It looks like it came from this guy:

And while you were sampling the merchandise, the guy was yelling: Yes, yes!! Only original. Aj sell only original Jahrmaha and with all cables or Denom 1000W a Chanel.

The cheapest crap plastic, not turning all the way it should, not weighing 2g, LEGO has better plastic then 600$ Yamaha. Just awful. My stove has better build.

I know, I know. Long gone are the times of molten steel.

killdozzer

 

[killdozzer]

I have another question for you all:

Recommend me some songs that have demanding highs, please. I'm burning a CD I'll take with me for further speaker testing. I have a lot of songs with demanding bass, and I have a lot of 'vocal heavy' stuff. I miss something with highs to do proper testing.

So far the only song in this compilation that has some highs is T. B. Sheets by Van Morrison (you know the mouth accordion, mouth organ, harmonica, whatever).

 

[Swerd]

In the meantime I can confirm that what you all said here is probably true to EU market as well. If it's intgr. amp + DAC + bass management you want you need a receiver. If you persist on having a stereo amp you'll get less for more money and have just a few models to choose from.

I thought the idea of using an AVR was out because it required that you connect it to a TV just to display the set up controls. I haven't kept up with every post you've made, sorry if I missed one that explained this.

Even though they are not perfect, an integrated stereo amp that lacks bass management combined with a self-powered subwoofer that has adjustable crossover controls can get the job done.

Today I've turned a couple of knobs on some Yamaha's and Pioneer's, awful! It looks like it came from this guy:

And while you were sampling the merchandise, the guy was yelling: Yes, yes!! Only original. Aj sell only original Jahrmaha and with all cables or Denom 1000W a Chanel.

That guy must have cousins in the USA. I swear a guy who looks just like him tried to sell me $200 speaker cables and the extended warrantee for another $80.

 

[Swerd]

Recommend me some songs that have demanding highs, please. I'm burning a CD I'll take with me for further speaker testing. I have a lot of songs with demanding bass, and I have a lot of 'vocal heavy' stuff. I miss something with highs to do proper testing.

Look for music with brass horns such as trumpets, or music with one or several female voices. Those upper midrange/lower treble frequencies can reveal problems, if played loud enough, that lead to ugly ear-fatigue-inducing sounds.

It's not easy to describe in words how this sounds, but you'll know it when you hear it. It sounds bright and harsh, like a razor blade that has a ragged edge that catches as it cuts, instead of a blade with a clean sharp edge.

Older versions of B&W 600 series bookshelf speaker definitely demonstrate this problem. I don't know for certain that the newer 685 or 686 speakers also do this. Try them an see if you hear a harsh edginess to the sound.

 

[killdozzer]

Even though they are not perfect, an integrated stereo amp that lacks bass management combined with a self-powered subwoofer that has adjustable crossover controls can get the job done.

This is probably what I'm settling for. I just need an intgr. amp with pre-out and mains in and a sub that has both in and out connections.

That guy must have cousins in the USA. I swear a guy who looks just like him tried to sell me $200 speaker cables and the extended warrantee for another $80.

extended warrantee... he probably said: the cables are more gold plated than me... eeeEverything is gold plated, even the remote so you can switch source while you're on the toilet.

killdozzer

 

[killdozzer]

This is available to me at a far lower price than SVS (which I know is better, but it's out of my range):

Acoustic Energy Neo V2

Technical Specifications
Type: Closed-box, active subwoofer
Driver: 220mm pulp cone with 48mm thermally bonded voice coil, High-power long-throw magnet system
Low Frequency Cut-off: -6dB @ 26Hz
Amplifier: 200 Watts into 8 Ohms
Low Pass Filter: Variable 2nd order, 45Hz to 150Hz
Phase: Variable 0 to 180
Notch Filter: Variable Frequency 40 to 100Hz, Q:1.5 to 5.0, Level: 0dB to -12dB

Several really good reviews. I didn't find any bad ones.
I see there's some 'notch' and 'phase' knobs. I don't know what these mean, but all I'm interested in is will this be sufficient for a nice sub integration?

killdozzer

EDIT: the room is cca. 1950 cubic feet

 

[killdozzer]

AN AMAZING development:

I found another store in Germany that has a promotional sale on the LS50' - 900$ for a new pair (not demo, not of shelf - finally endless hours of digging around every shop in nearby countries payed of).

So I'm modifying my strategy. First I wanted to be absolutely sure in advance of what I'm buying since I didn't want to have to sell something in ads, it's a hustle for me.

BUT, since this is such a good opportunity, I've decided I will buy them. Everything about them seems to tell me they're really good. But they're also much sought after and I could easily end up selling them for the exact same price on the second hand market (if I would be so unfortunate not to like them).

(And I'm getting a little bit tired of this waiting)

I am in the process of ordering right now. For starters a friend of mine will lend me a NAD stereo amp just to test them. My lenovo has a Dolby software so the sound is fine for now.

I will keep you posted!
killdozzer

 

[Swerd]

Several really good reviews. I didn't find any bad ones.
I see there's some 'notch' and 'phase' knobs. I don't know what these mean, but all I'm interested in is will this be sufficient for a nice sub integration?

I'm not familiar with the Acoustic Energy Neo V2 subwoofer or any of their other products. But from their website and the owner's manual they don't seem to exaggerate or misrepresent their product. The Neo V2 is a 220mm subwoofer (8.6"). While it may not satisfy some home theater people who want to feel the earth move, I think it could work to supplement the bass in music when combined with KEF LS50 speakers.

You can connect this subwoofer to any AVR or any integrated stereo system.

• If you have an AVR, use a single RCA audio cable and connect to the sub woofer's AV SUBWOOFER LINE-IN jack. If you use this connection point, you bypass the subwoofer's crossover controls.
  
  
• If you have an integrated stereo amp, use a pair of RCA audio cables the LINE IN RIGHT and LINE IN LEFT connection jacks. These will be combined to create a mono signal within the subwoofer. If needed, you can also run these left & right signals back to the amplifier or to connect to multiple subwoofers. When you choose an integrated stereo amp, be certain that it has RCA pre-out jacks. The Yamaha amps, like the A-S701, do not have this.

So, to directly answer your question, YES, this subwoofer should allow you to connect with an integrated stereo amp only if it has RCA preamp-output jacks, and should allow decent sub integration.

Note that I am more of speaker guy than a sub woofer guy. I find that the speakers you choose matter more to the overall sound quality than the subwoofer. Opinions on this subject tend to vary widely, so take my opinions as just that. The owner's manual comments (page 3) on positioning seem to be good. Positioning a subwoofer has a very large effect on the sound it produces.

 

[Swerd]

I found another store in Germany that has a promotional sale on the LS50' - 900$ for a new pair (not demo, not of shelf - finally endless hours of digging around every shop in nearby countries payed of).

I am in the process of ordering right now. For starters a friend of mine will lend me a NAD stereo amp just to test them. My lenovo has a Dolby software so the sound is fine for now.

$900 for a pair of LS50 speaker is excellent. That's 60% of the retail price. Get those.

 

[Swerd]

You can connect this subwoofer to any AVR or any integrated stereo system.

• If you have an AVR, use a single RCA audio cable and connect to the sub woofer's AV SUBWOOFER LINE-IN jack. If you use this connection point, you bypass the subwoofer's crossover controls.
  
  
• If you have an integrated stereo amp, use a pair of RCA audio cables the LINE IN RIGHT and LINE IN LEFT connection jacks. These will be combined to create a mono signal within the subwoofer. If needed, you can also run these left & right signals back to the amplifier or to connect to multiple subwoofers. When you choose an integrated stereo amp, be certain that it has RCA pre-out jacks. The Yamaha amps, like the A-S701, do not have this.

I may be wrong about the requirement for two RCA pre-out jacks. The Yamaha integrated amps do have a single subwoofer RCA out-put jack (see photo). I don't see any reason why you could not connect a single RCA cable between the Yamaha SUB WOOFER OUT jack and one of the Acoustic Energy V2 sub woofer LINE IN jacks. The left & right inputs will be combined into a mono signal in the subwoofer. That was probably already done by the Yamaha.

 

[killdozzer]

Oh, it's on. IT'S ON! I see a couple of sleepless nights in front of me. I'll feel like a student all over again. Everything went just the way I hoped it would. No sudden changes, no last minute hidden expenses... I am making a full payment today and they will begin their long journey.

This is in Euros WITH the shipping costs!!!!:

Amazing. The person of the day being one Ursula Steinel (the promotional sale should have ended last week, but since I send my first inquiry Saturday morning they're including it in promotional sales).

Soon enough you can expect me to post in both "what are you drinking right now?" and "What New Stuff Have You Bought?..."

Recap to all who tried to help me (@Swerd @Alex2507 @Steve81 @herbu @KenM10759 @TheWarrior @TLS Guy @lovinthehd (whose nick I first read as love in the hand for some reason, sorry lovinthehd) @PENG @fuzz092888 to name but a few) - first of all; I'm in your debt. If you plan on visiting Zagreb give me a call, we'll pop a cork or two.

Last decision I made is to spend the current amount on more expensive speakers and wait a bit on getting my own amp and lastly getting a sub. No prognoses on the dates yet.

killdozzer

 

[lovinthehd]

@lovinthehd[/USER] (whose nick I first read as love in the hand for some reason, sorry lovinthehd) @PENG @fuzz092888 to name but a few) - first of all; I'm in your debt. If you plan on visiting Zagreb give me a call, we'll pop a cork or two.

Last decision I made is to spend the current amount on more expensive speakers and wait a bit on getting my own amp and lastly getting a sub. No prognoses on the dates yet.

killdozzer

LOL I hadn't heard/thought of that interpretation of my screen name! At the time I think I'd just seen "Superbad" and was sort of thinking of mclovin, as well as just recently started enjoying high-def tv. Likewise, ever come to Oregon....

Patience and shopping can work out well.... Congrats on the score on the LS50s!

 

[KenM10759]

Black = Schwarz?

Congratulations! You will NOT be disappointed!

 

[killdozzer]

Black = Schwarz?

Congratulations! You will NOT be disappointed!

Thanx, thanx Ken and yes; once you go schwarz, you never go zurück!

I asked the sweet lady Ursula if it's the same on their end, to make the deal on some titanium gray's, but what the hell, at this price there's no room for complaints.

LOL I hadn't heard/thought of that interpretation of my screen name! At the time I think I'd just seen "Superbad" and was sort of thinking of mclovin, as well as just recently started enjoying high-def tv. Likewise, ever come to Oregon....

Patience and shopping can work out well.... Congrats on the score on the LS50s!

A! You're from Oregon? You guys/girls have some pretty neat Pinot Noir up there. I might just take you on that offer!

 

[lovinthehd]

A! You're from Oregon? You guys/girls have some pretty neat Pinot Noir up there. I might just take you on that offer!

Well, a recent arrival from California but don't tell anyone....that's not a real popular thing up here. We have good Pinot Noir? Wouldn't surprise me altho I prefer our wonderful craft breweries...and my liquor tastes go back to Scotland. We can find something for ya, no problem tho....