Speakers Q&A

[killdozzer]

Since I'm on a different market from most of you, I can’t just ask you to recommend me some speakers. I have to see what is available to me and ask here how would you rate them. I hope you’ll have the will and time and I’ll try not to be difficult.

The question is about speakers, the same as discussed in the “How Do You Read A/V Grades” thread. Since that is obviously no longer the subject of the conversation, I decided to start the thread here in Speakers and move the debate. I hope no one got banned for starting a few threads on the subject

My decision so far is to try and find cheaper KEF LS50 which by the standards of many of you, sound quite good (or even better than that) and are relatively easy to drive. This will take some time.

In the meantime, these are available to me:


Revel Concerta2 M16

2-way 6.5" Bookshelf Loudspeaker

Crossover Frequencies

2.1kHz

Enclosure Type

Bass-Reflex via Rear-Firing Port

High-frequency Drive Components

1" Aluminum Tweeter with Acoustic Lens Waveguide

Nominal Impedance

6 Ohms

Input Connections

Five-way binding posts

Low Frequency Extension

55Hz, 50Hz, 45Hz (-3 dB, -6 dB, -10 dB)

Low-frequency Drive Components

6.5" Aluminum Cone Woofer

Recommended Amplifier Power

50-120W

Sensitivity

86dB (2.83V @ 1M)

Dimensions

14.75" x 8.6"x 10.76" (37cm x 22cm x 27cm)

Weight

16 lbs


Now I have to ask you to compare it with LS50. I might get these for 900-1000$ (not cheaper). Is that a good deal, is this a “900$ LS50” so to speak?


FOR LATECOMERS (joining late to the conversation whatever your excuse may be):

I’m looking for a pair of bookshelves. They should be as clean and natural as possible; I’m not about “lie to me beautifully” approach. Old fashion stereo with a couple of new connections is what I’m after. Mostly for music - wide range, from electro pop to acoustic (very little classical), I will play my movies with sound coming out of these, but I’m not for 3D sound, immersion, atmos, centre speakers and so on. Good old stereo for movies as well. Shortly after, these bookshelves will be accompanied with a sub to complete a 2.1 stereo system (hopefully with an amp that will have an USB input leading to a decent DAC for my PC digital music archive).


This is for my living room. It is a 22 square meters (237 square feet) room that has very little furniture for the time being and one entire side of the wall is in huge windows (not good I know). They will be placed along the wider wall directed across the width of the room, not depth (although I have a feeling the latter would be better).


I have enough room to place them further away from the wall. I’m not dabbling in DIY and am a bit hard on second hand. They should be new speakers for not more than 1000$.


To save you all some time these are available to me: PSB, Scansonic, Quad, Tangent, KEF, Klipsch, Dynaudio, DALI, QAcoustics, Triangle, Focal, Audio Pro, Boston Acoustics, B&W, Mordaunt-Short, Tannoy, Monitor Audio, PMC, JBL, Wharfdale, Gradient, Micromega, Usher and Acoustic Energy…



killdozzer

 

[KenM10759]

Rather than beat this to death on the forum, please just go out and listen to as many as you can. Take home as many as you can to hear them in your home. Then decide yourself. None of them are bad, it's just that some may sound better to YOU.

Even for folks here (most of us in the US), the prices you get in your area are higher than ours for some but lower than ours for others. The KEF LS50 is a good example. If you really like those and don't get them, you may have regrets buying something else. Just save a little more and get what you really want.

 

[Swerd]

Now you are running into the real problem people have with buying speakers. There are a lot of different speakers made and advertised. It is easy to find reviews of them on the internet. However it is much more difficult to find them and listen to them nearby where you live.

I haven't heard the Revel Concerta2 M16, so I cannot comment directly about them. However Revel does have a very good reputation, especially for their more expensive Ultima series speakers. If you can find them locally, go hear them. Bring your own music that you know well. $900 (USA) is the asking price in the US.

I can pick several names that you had mentioned, that I think have a generally good reputation: PSB, Quad, KEF, Dynaudio, Focal, and PMC.

Most of the others, I don't have enough familiarity with them to comment. Several of them, Klipsch and B&W, I would avoid.

 

[killdozzer]

OK guys, it's official now. I hate you. You've ruined me for life. I went out there and listened to a couple of speakers. What I found out is that you simply don’t trust me enough. What happened was exactly what I expected and exactly what I told you would happen.

I went to the first place on my list, a shop called AudioDream, sells a lot of fancy as well as good value/money ratio brands (Dynaudio, Nad and such), I said I was there to hear a couple of bookshelves that sound good for cca. 800$ (I was so canny, I didn’t disclose my full amount ). He hooked the first pair and I was smitten. I was dead in the water; I wanted to tell him to write me a check. I was about to buy them and close the deal.

It was a pair of Rega RX-One. They sounded amazing… for two… three songs… Then it started - the tiring, piercing mids, the clawing on my ear drums, the plucking of the strings that was like plucking my nose hairs.. After a while I wanted it to stop. 30 minutes and that was it. I wanted silence. These were really lying to me.

Lucky me it was obvious. What if it was more subtle?

I went to another store to hear the Q300 like Steve81 recommended (he said Q100 but there were none). A completely different experience. At first no 'AW' effect, I thought why would I pay for this. But after a while I found myself thinking: I could listen to these for hours. Not only were they not tiring, I felt as though my ears are being massaged and healed from the previous experience.

Unbelievable.

I didn’t buy KEF Q300 because I’m looking for something even a bit more serious and they were, in my opinion, desperately lacking bass. And I know I’m talking about bookshelves but still. And Q300's have enough volume to produce some lows yet nothing was there to be found. Too little lows.

Other then this, they were excellent.

This is what I wanted you to help me with. I will ask you about a couple of brands that are available to me. If you know them and if you know they are lying and putting on a good show, making much drama, “much ado about nothing” you warn me. What if I fall for a subtle trick and I become aware of it somewhere down the road? I would feel like a right ass.


thx for all the help though!

 

[Swerd]

We are happy and satisfied to learn how we have ruined your life .

So far, you have shopped well. You resisted the urge to buy those Regas long enough to realize that what made them so amazing and noticeable at first was the same thing that could make you hate them. It's like buying shoes. You have to wear them long enough to know if they hurt your feet.

Those KEFs didn't amaze at first, but you resisted buying them too. Good! Remember those KEFs, and keep shopping. Listen to them again at some later time and see if you have the same reaction.

The more you listen the faster you will recognize what is good and what is bad sounding.

 

[KenM10759]

The LS50 does go a little deeper than the Q300, though you didn't mention if the port on the front of the Q300 was open or plugged. You would find the LS50 is even clearer than the Q300 without being sharp like the Rega RX-One. Their R100 would be right in the middle of those two.

 

[Alex2507]

A good way to audition speakers is to bring some headphones that you like. Sony MDR-V6 is a good inexpensive headphone. Anyway you can compare whatever speakers against your headphones as a reference. That should tell you something about how the speakers sound against each other. Take notes too.

 

[killdozzer]

A couple of good advice coming from you as usual; I will listen to a couple more and I could bring my headphones. @Alex2507 I have one of the cheaper Grado models, but I am very, very satisfied with them, even though I could agree with someone (forgot who) who said that Grado is great for people who don't really hear well. I can see that they are very revealing and analytical. Like when someone doesn't get the joke so you end up explaining every little detail until it's not funny anymore. This is how Grado 'overexplains' everything about a song. The difference between me and that guy being that nothing about their revealing and analytical properties bothers me. If it's a good recording I can listen to my Grado's for a whole afternoon. (if it's bad recording forget about it. I will never get over a song Sand and Foam by Donovan, it is a song like no other, very odd and beautiful, but almost impossible to find a good recording or remastering) I will bring them.

Another thing I forgot was to bring my CD. And this is also important.

@KenM10759 the ports were open at least as much as I could see. I guess that covers would be fairly noticeable. The guy was playing Eric Clapton Unplugged, not something I would listen but I know this material and it was very well played

I saw in the guy's eyes he was very happy about my comment about KEF's, he also said I should wait and hear LS50's because they are almost magical (not the word I like to hear anymore when it comes to equipment, but I got what he was trying to say) I remember thinking; he must hear all sorts of rubbish in his life and line of work. Like: I'm looking for connectors that will make Madonna sound like Lady Gaga

But still, I'm telling you, you've ruined me, and now you have got to help me. Same way you helped me with Revel, which I now hold to be 'audition-able' and Klipsch I don't have to waste my time with. Klipsch were playing the moment I entered the second store and immediately I started looking where they hid the sub. But there was no sub to be found. I thought; nah, I'm sick of this.

Ok, thanks and read you around!
killdozzer

 

[Swerd]

I saw in the guy's eyes he was very happy about my comment about KEF's, he also said I should wait and hear LS50's because they are almost magical (not the word I like to hear anymore when it comes to equipment, but I got what he was trying to say) I remember thinking; he must hear all sorts of rubbish in his life and line of work.

Are you telling us that you never encountered a customer who wanted rubbish wine? Like, why can't Château Lafite Rothschild make a decent sparkling rosé?

I'm looking for connectors that will make Madonna sound like Lady Gaga

I love that! I once heard a speaker salesman claim the speakers he wanted to sell to me could make Barry Manilow sound like Frank Sinatra. Your line is more modern. I will use it .

 

[killdozzer]

...Frank Sinatra, good one.

Come to think of it, no, I have never encountered a customer with such demands, but there's time. I work with wine for a couple of years. Still much to discover.

Although there's Snake Oil galore in wine business. When organic goes to mystic. Like: "I rolled a huge boulder in my vineyard that now emits cosmic sounds, will you give me an extra 50$ for a bottle? And it heals your liver too!"

"I play classical music to my wines in my basement. This means I treat them as living beings. Will you give ma an extra 50$ for a bottle" Mind you, they never ever do this free of charge.

But people just give them an extra 'fiddy'. People like to feel special - it is not just wine they drink it's mixed with cosmic sounds...

 

[lsiberian]

Speakers will perform completely different in your home than in a listening space. They will sound different with changes in placement, carpeting, furniture, decor, and even the number of people in the room. Thankfully our brains have the best EQ in the world and will compensate for the flaws in our listening environments fairly quickly. IMO You probably can't go wrong following any long time members recommendations. If you've never had a system before on this level it's hard to even describe the level of improvement in your listening experience you will have.

You might even copy a signature.

 

[killdozzer]

Is there any correlation between ohm's and sensitivity in speakers? Are closed boxes always harder to drive?

One more thing, I was amazed to see how short does the membrane travel in UniQ design (Q300 also employs these). One would almost ask what is displacing air in the first place? But, more importantly, these are bass reflex boxes, same as LS50's, you get a feeling ports are useless with such a short motion.

On that note; what do you get by closing ports? And, other then specific BSC, does a short traveling membrane allow for placing rear ported speakers closer to the walls? Many reviewers claim that LS50's are not picky about placement, although they are rear ported as I said.

killdozzer

 

[killdozzer]

Some RATHER good news!!!, I found a shop in Germany selling new KEF LS50's for a 1000$. This is the lowest price so far for a pair of new LS50's. Still have to hear the mothers, but if I like them, I'm probably ordering by mail. And 25$ outside Germany universal EU shipping fee. Even after that it's the cheapest pair.

Are this measurements OK for speaker cables that will 'run long' for 2.5 meters (6.2/6.3 feet):
Use: Single-Wiring
Cross section: SP-15: 2 x 1.5mm2
Conductor material: oxygen-free pure copper (OFC)
Dimensions: SP-15: 12.9 x 2.3mm
Capacity / Meter: SP-15: 60pF
It should be according to those tables you've linked earlier, I'm just checking whether I'm reading it right.

killdozzer

 

[Steve81]

Is there any correlation between ohm's and sensitivity in speakers?

Sensitivity tells you how loud a speaker will get with a certain amount of voltage. Via Ohm's Law, impedance will tell you how much current is being drawn. Current * Voltage = Power (ignoring phase angles). For a given sensitivity, a lower impedance speaker will draw more power, and represent a more difficult load for an amplifier.

Are closed boxes always harder to drive?

A vented box does have an advantage in efficiency around its tuning point, all else being equal.

One more thing, I was amazed to see how short does the membrane travel in UniQ design (Q300 also employs these). One would almost ask what is displacing air in the first place? But, more importantly, these are bass reflex boxes, same as LS50's, you get a feeling ports are useless with such a short motion.

It doesn't really take a lot of motion to generate moderate levels of sound. You can fool around with this calculator to see how that works. One general rule is that every time you bump up the volume by 6dB, excursion doubles. Another is that dropping an octave (cutting frequency in half) requires 4x the excursion. As far as ports go, the cone is in fact barely moving at all around its tuning frequency, even at high output levels. You can see that in the measurements of the LS50 in the other thread.

On that note; what do you get by closing ports?

Mostly reduced extension, though IME it can be helpful for blending with a subwoofer (fewer cancellations around the XO point).

does a short traveling membrane allow for placing rear ported speakers closer to the walls?

No.

 

[Steve81]

Are this measurements OK for speaker cables that will 'run long' for 2.5 meters (6.2/6.3 feet)

For that length of run, just about anything within reason would work. Even el-cheapo 16AWG wire available at Walmart (or whatever discount retailers you have out there) would suffice.

 

[Swerd]

For that length of run, just about anything within reason would work. Even el-cheapo 16AWG wire available at Walmart (or whatever discount retailers you have out there) would suffice.

Remember that wire gauges are used in the US but not in Europe. That's why kd mentioned diameter or cross-sectional area for wires.

See this conversion table:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge#Tables_of_AWG_wire_sizes

16AWG = 1.29mm diameter = 1.31mm² cross-sectional area.

15AWG ≈ 1.45mm diameter ≈ 1.5mm² area

11AWG = 2.3mm diameter = 4.17mm² area

 

[TLS Guy]

Is there any correlation between ohm's and sensitivity in speakers? Are closed boxes always harder to drive?

One more thing, I was amazed to see how short does the membrane travel in UniQ design (Q300 also employs these). One would almost ask what is displacing air in the first place? But, more importantly, these are bass reflex boxes, same as LS50's, you get a feeling ports are useless with such a short motion.

On that note; what do you get by closing ports? And, other then specific BSC, does a short traveling membrane allow for placing rear ported speakers closer to the walls? Many reviewers claim that LS50's are not picky about placement, although they are rear ported as I said.

killdozzer

You do not understand how a tuned ported enclosure works.

As frequency decreases a loudspeaker cone becomes increasingly inefficient at sound production. An acoustic transformer is required. The driver and air in the enclosure are tuned by the port.

At around the tuning frequency the pressure in the box rises to very high pressures. The pressure is so high in fact the the loudspeaker cone virtually is stopped in its tracks and the majority of the sound is radiated from the port. The port radiation is in phase with the loudspeaker cone.

Here is the cone displacement of a typical speaker. You will note how cone movement is restricted at tuning and then increases below it. The cone movement below tuning is ineffective and virtually useless.

Here is the output graph.

 

[killdozzer]

You do not understand how a tuned ported enclosure works.

As frequency decreases a loudspeaker cone becomes increasingly inefficient at sound production. An acoustic transformer is required. The driver and air in the enclosure are tuned by the port.

At around the tuning frequency the pressure in the box rises to very high pressures. The pressure is so high in fact the the loudspeaker cone virtually is stopped in its tracks and the majority of the sound is radiated from the port. The port radiation is in phase with the loudspeaker cone.

Here is the cone displacement of a typical speaker. You will note how cone movement is restricted at tuning and then increases below it. The cone movement below tuning is ineffective and virtually useless.

GOD DAMN this is all so fascinating!! I wish I studied acoustics now.

But, the cone travels back and forth, thus creating pressure and vacuum at the farthest points of it motion, does this help with the dumping factor, this stopping of the cone? And surely it's just theoretical because it WOULD create pressure if there was no port, right? Well, actually it creates SOME pressure which then pushes the air out. Shouldn't it also suck in some air when the cone protrudes forward?

I understand that the amount of air you feel on your hand when you put it in front of the port increases with higher volume. But I also had a feeling that the cone on KEF's I observed barely moved at all. Even the friend who accompanied me (who is close to my knowledge/ignorance on the subject) found it strange. With all those cones with a rubber ring around them you can see the membrane moving easily.

This is why I asked. In reviews you can often find authors claiming that front ported speaker are easy for placement. Then again so are the back ported LS50', so I thought this might be because not much goes out the back to hit the wall.

The more you tell me the more curious I get. I should probably stop, you'll ban me otherwise, but this what you said make me wanna ask you about TDL speakers and all that transmission line technology. Was it really good and just to expensive and complicated for mass production or was there some other reason they stopped producing these?

killdozzer

 

[lovinthehd]

For some audio fun fook up helmholtz resonance!

 

[killdozzer]

AAAAAAAAARGH!! Bummer, downer, disaster! They've been sold. The LS50's for 1000$. Must have been some Easter discount and it went away. Missed them because I didn't have the chance to hear them before ordering.

This is how it always goes in this part of the world. The guy said he ordered LS50's a month ago. What are they delivering them with, mules? I'm this close to post in 'the steam vent' thread.

When I posted in one EU based thread a guy from my country saw it and jumped to recommend a store in my home city. I managed to keep my composure and just answer calmly, but I don't know to whom I did the favor. For the way they conduct their business here, lawsuits should ensue.

It takes them two months for something that arrives at your doorstep in a matter of 3-5 working days and then they charge you approx. 250$ on top of the regular price. Only here can you find a store selling a discontinued piece of equipment for 100$ more than the original price was when it first hit the market. And then they keep that same price even as the prices in neighbouring countries are dropping so you end up paying as much as 300$ more. Free market my ass. Today a movie projector I bought half a year ago costs 350$ more than what I gave back then (I bought it in Hungary).

OK, I'm done. Sorry for this public demise of mine.

Let's try and go on in a more constructive manner;

The term 'pre-out' in itself doesn't necessarily mean that it has no bass management, right?
I saw this Marantz NR1506 that has a pre out and subwoofer together:

But it has Audyssey and this allows some bass management, if I'm not wrong.

Another question if you still have patience; do receivers with bass management use the same DAC for both bass management and playback of your digital sources?

If it is a digital bass processing then some type of analogue - digital - analogue conversion should take place, correct? Is it the same DAC that does all the work?

I can't understand how can it work with the signal from your i.e. CD and divide frequencies for bass at the same time.